145 Extra. Paul Hawken
On an upcoming global launch & the US mid-terms
I hope you enjoy this little tribute episode. It’s the 10th anniversary of the passing of my old mate and mentor, Professor Frank Fisher. He’d be 79 today. The honours list of guests on these anniversary editions now includes Hazel Henderson, Allan Savory and Charlie Massy. This year, it’s Paul Hawken, the multiple best-selling author of Regeneration: Ending the climate crisis in one generation. This is the rest of the conversation Paul and I shared last week – featuring some fun personal exchanges, and even some out-takes (for those who listen right through), to close out the year.
Pic; from the Project Regeneration website portal Nexus.
“We look at all those solutions, and every single one of them we’d want to do because they create a better life for people. And the pathway, the doorway, the gate way to reversing global warming goes through the path of the people who are paying the highest price.”
We start with Paul’s take on the US mid-terms. Then we get the early running on what’s coming down the line with Project Regeneration. And there is plenty, including a global launch of a short film with an all-star cast, on December 7 / 8 (details below). After that, we got talking about some of Paul’s favourite episodes on The RegenNarration. I’ll have a brief update on the podcast on the other side of this conversation too, including …
I’m shifting host platform for the podcast. It’s been a long time coming really. SoundCloud has been my host platform till now, and it really isn’t set up for podcasts anymore. The change shouldn’t affect your listening in any way. It’ll still be available where you listen to podcasts, and on The RegenNarration website. But if you do experience any glitches, this might be why, and will hopefully be short lived.
If you’re following the podcast on SoundCloud, it’ll still be available there too I believe, just not hosted there. Again, just let me know if you notice anything go wrong. And otherwise, I hope you find a better experience in the change too – with clearer show notes, website player and other benefits.
This conversation was recorded online with Paul at home is California on 15 November 2022, Australian time.
The line from Frank Fisher was recorded at a tribute event in May of 2012 at Swinburne University in Melbourne.
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Please note this transcript isn’t perfect, but hopefully serves to provide greater access to these conversations for those who need or like to read.
SPEAKERS
Anthony James, Paul Hawken, Frank Fisher
Frank 00:00
I'm a greeny, but my main interests are not in East Gippsland, they're right in this room. For me, if I can make you wilder when you leave this room than when you came into it, I've done my job. And what I'm getting at, of course, is not angry, but less predictable to me. If I can make you less predictable to me when you walk out, than when you walk in, I've done my job. And I'm very grateful for that. And I know with many of you, and I can imagine a very high proportion of you in this room, that is indeed the case. And that is enough thanks to carry me way beyond the grave. I'm very grateful for you all being here and taking that torch with you. So thanks for that.
Anthony 01:04
G'day, Anthony James here for The RegenNarration. Some of you might recognize that voice and even that clip. I have played it before on this podcast back in episode 50 with Hazel Henderson in the first anniversary special dedicated to my old mate and mentor, the legendary late Professor Frank Fisher. He'd be 79 today. That clip comes from his penultimate public appearance not long before he died 10 years ago now. The brain tumor was impeding his speech a bit by this point, but he had a packed house and overflow room riveted as ever that night in Melbourne. Bicycles were stacked up out front too, in its own silent tribute. Following Hazel Henderson on the honors list for these anniversary episodes, was Allan Savory in 2020. And last year was Charlie Massy. This year, it's the multiple best selling author of Regeneration: Ending the climate crisis in one generation.
Paul 02:08
Hi, everyone, this is Paul Hawken. And this is RegenNarration. We look at all those solutions, and every single one of them we'd want to do because they create a better life for people. And the pathway, the doorway, the gate way to reversing global warming goes through the path of the people who are paying the highest price.
Anthony 02:29
I hope you enjoy this little tribute episode, it features the rest of the conversation Paul and I shared last week, featuring some fun personal exchanges, and even some outtakes for those who might listen right through, to close out the year. We start with Paul's take on the US midterms. Then we get the early running on what's coming down the line with Project Regeneration. And there is plenty, including a global launch of a short film clip with an all star cast on December 5. After that, we got talking about some of Paul's favorite episodes of The RegenNarration. I'll have a brief update on the podcast on the other side of this conversation too. So see you then. For now, here's Paul.
Anthony 03:19
I'm conscious of getting to our wind up time. Paul, I did want to have a brief word about the midterms. We get the news generally about the midterms. But I'm wondering about - I mean, that story that was written up in Dirt road revival with Chloe Maxmin getting elected to the Senate from Maine. And as a woman who was educated in the city, but went back to a rural area too, and then was elected, even in the US system - I say that without preferential voting and the like, on a similar modus operandi to our independents, of course that we talked about last time as potentially changing our parliament down here. And they did a few months later in our federal election this year, with seven or eight more, and all women getting elected. Chloe did a similar thing. I'm wondering what your impression is generally of the state of play there. If there are other good news stories from our lens that are coming out of the midterms at this juncture?
Paul 04:18
Yeah, I think demographically, I mean, first of all the assumptions of a so called red wave that the Republicans would just sweep over everything and election deniers would be Secretary of State, and then you control the voting apparatus. And all that sort of fear was basically the Republicans breathing their own exhaust. You read about it, and you thought and I think everyone I knew says, Oh, my God, I hope not and accepted that it might happen. But when you look into it further, there's a lot more pollsters now who actually work for Republicans and they're, they're Republican. And so the polls were coming out as many many more polls now than there used to be. And you know, saying the red wave, the red wave, the red wave, which as somebody said, turned out to be a purple trickle. And again, the polls weren't reading the people. And I would say the most interesting thing about what happened was women and Gen Z. Gen Z voted for the first time really in a presidential election. And I mean, I guess some did in 2020 to be appropriate,. And Gen Z is a really interesting demographic who, basically, I mean, I would typify it as saying, you know, they got here and are going, what were you guys thinking? And then women, you know, basically, the Supreme Court just basically slapped women across the face. And so those two things are not going to go away. And so I'm not sure the proto fascism that seems so appealing and is appealing to a lot of people is going to persist or grow. And but I think it's important to understand why it's attractive. And it's attractive, because in a time of stress, and a time of uncertainty and time of anxiety, where, and you see this huge, you know, bifurcation of wealth, you know, where you just the wealthy, the multi, multi billionaires, even trillionaires, you know, are being paraded about and have the lifestyle on their boats and the yachts and their women and their this, and you're surfeited with that kind of information, I think and even the advertisement themselves that you see on TV portray, really happy people that are very diverse but they're happy, and they've got a new car, and they got this and that and all that stuff. So most Americans are hurting, economically, and in terms of their health, in terms of the stresses on them is enormous. And I think what's happening is that, and we have this hyper individuation of people by the media, by advertising and everything that people hear, see and read. And I think that then people felt alone, it felt like they were ignored, they felt that they lost out, they felt like they're not good enough, it's something they did wrong. Why don't I have a new electric Ford 250? You know, why don't I have this? And that, and why can I go on the cruise ships, and you know, all sorts of feeling like, basically, they got the short end of the stick, that is a loss of identity. And when you have that kind of loss of identity, then it's very easy for demagogue or populist or proto fascist to move in. Because what they do is they tell stories that actually make you right, and tell you those people over there. They're the ones who did it are doing and they benefit, and they're doing it to you. And so you use in, you know, in the 30s, there was Jews, and it's almost Jews again, in America this time, it's just, you know, it's the liberals, the the radical left, you know, the socialists, this drain the swamp on all sorts of things. And then on top of that you layer conspiracies like, you know, the election was stolen, and so forth. And the thing about conspiracies is they're very attracted to the same demographic, because they give people a sense of not only identity, but that they know something that you don't know that they're on the inside. And the world is on the outside, and they're going to stick to their guns on it, because it gives them a sense of meaning of again, identity and self worth, which is so crazy, because it's not coming from its bogus.
Anthony 08:36
Yeah. Goes back to where we started, doesn't it? The trauma, the roots of it.
Paul 08:41
Yeah. trauma. And people are traumatized now, they're getting more traumatised, not less.
Anthony 08:47
Well, that's it. Yeah. So it requires more care, not less.
Paul 08:50
Exactly. Exactly. And I think it also one thing, and I've said this to people, it comes up and people look at the last two books, as you know, climate solutions, but it's you know, yeah, but the narrative is that we have to fix it, we have to solve it. If we don't terrible things are gonna happen. You know, I'm not arguing that point from a scientific basis. I wouldn't argue that at all, I think that's correct. But the thing is, we're looking at as if we're trying to solve climate crisis, solving the climate crisis, and in fact, if there wasn't a climatologist alive, we had no understanding of extreme weather there was just like, Well, it happened and we had fires and now it's flooding and wow we never saw floods like that before. I mean, just like whatever it happened. We'd look at all those solutions and every single one of them we'd want to do because they create a better life for people and the pathway, the doorway, the gate way to reversing global warming, goes through the path of the people who are paying the highest price the people who are living in impoverished conditions the people who aren't paid properly, don't have the schools don't have health care, don't have good food, don't have food security don't have security, security, that is where we should be focusing our attention. And that is how we're going to reverse the climate crisis, not by the privileged talking to each other, and having bogus offsets, and this and that, and having net zero commitments in 2050, which is, means well, but means nothing at the same time. It's going to be through compassion and through heart and through care. And that is what Mother Earth is telling us to do is, you know, you can keep acting that way but that shits gonna happen. until you stop acting this way. So, really, I just say look at these things - I'm not wanting anybody to suffer anywhere. But the fact is that these are a blessing, because they're really about waking up. And and it's about why are you here at all, at all, given where we are and what's happening and how we're doing what's happening and how we're causing it. And so it's a beautiful koen and question, query from our mom the earth, which is, how come you're here?
Anthony 11:23
On that note, on that note ...
Paul 11:26
Yeah?
Anthony 11:28
The Regeneration Project is picking up I notice, and more people coming in the team. The stories that come through the email bulletin, the Waggle, which is brilliantly named, it's worth googling waggle, if anyone doesn't know what that is. I mean, there's just so much on the level of people getting the lesson. Right. And and trying to answer that question. There's so much going on as ever, in the face of all these, you know, the old paradigm doing its thing still, there's so much!
Paul 12:02
well, let me tell you what we're doing. One is that - in no particular order, we're working with Participant Media, and do a six part series - Participant is the most lit up production company in the world. You look at what they've produced, the movies, everything is just astonishing. It's going to be narrated by Amanda Gorman, who was the poet who read that poem at Joe Biden's inauguration, which is just blew people away. African American young poet. And we're working with the University of California, Irvine, which look - I'm living in California and born here, and I didn't really think much about UCI - It's like whatever it's in Orange County, purple County at best - and it is one of the top science universities in North America, the only university to win a Nobel Prize for climate science. And it's j- the first Earth Sciences school in the world was UCI - Ralph Ciceronian, 1998 amazing climatologist, but I've been working with them. And they're going to start the first Regeneration Institute in the university or college in the world. But this is where it's different, and the students there and I think its students worldwide to one degree or another, but to pretty much you know, same degree, are we talked about panic, stressed, worried, depressed and on meds, mental health issues, because of the what they see in the world, and they just don't get it. And they're right not to get it. But the fact is that a lot of the anxiety comes from being in this university. They're smart, or they wouldn't be there. But the fact is, they look at their profession they've chosen or the major that they've chosen, and they're thinking about when I get out, will this make any difference at all? And the fact is, most of them think I don't see how it can make any difference. I may even get a good salary, but good salary in a world that's going down the tubes. And so the regeneration Institute will be in all 14 schools. It won't be a silo. It won't be between medical engineering buildings. So you just go down there and it's just to the left. No, it won't have a building. And then the board of regents or the Head of the board of regents wants us to present to the whole board of regents - there's 10 campuses, the University of California system is the biggest university system in the world, and widely acclaimed to be the best as a system not as a university. And he wants it for the same reason because the students are having a really hard time getting their education and looking to the right or left or whatever and going. Aaaah, you know, I mean, that that level of anxiety is not something you can just fix. And then there's another university in - I won't name it quite yet. But it is in Europe, world renowned, respected Science University. And they now want to incorporate regeneration into the thing. I speak to the board of advisors, which is like our board of directors, but the Board of Advisors on Thursday, we'll see, I think it will be. And once those universities, do it, universities learn from other universities. And I think it's just a matter of time where whether it's Monash or RMIT, you know, others just do it, because it makes sense to look at the world that way. Because really, at the end of the day, regeneration is a lens and a framework. It's not a body of knowledge, you know, we're all learning - the Haggerty's, and Charlie and you and, and we're learning from the past from people who understood the country. And you know, and we were destroying it until we figured out that they actually knew - now we're listening to the right teachers. So that's what's happening. And then we're creating the Waggles are going to expand to, to be on the on the website as well. And we're inviting groups all over the world who are about regeneration, even if they don't use the word doesn't matter, but to post articles and pieces, and so forth. And so it will change daily. And there'll be written pieces. And if it's written by somebody, then their name is there, the byline right there. And it'll have a picture and it'll have their organization, you can read it and go, I want to see oh, that person has written six different things. You can read their body of work that's on waggle, you can see the organization, you can go to that. And then if it's RegenNarration, then you go well, oh, my God, look at the 100 and some podcasts, whatever. But the point being is that so that those people who are wondering what to do, and feel like they want to connect to the greater world of regeneration can do so - everything we do on the website on Nexus, which is really the solutions by agency and, and the challenges by solution goes to the Creative Commons. So anybody can take it and then localize it. regionalize it - no permission needed. Some people might screw it up well, okay, but either make it Creative Commons, or you hold it tight, and then check on everybody's work, which is really silly. So there's more. And then I'm hiring a woman, beautiful woman of color. We haven't closed the deal yet, but - to take over my role. And so I want her to run the organization, not only for who she is just colorblind, but also from who she is in terms of, her experience as being a woman of color, which is very, very different than a privileged white woman, but also the legacy - and I remember something that Hindou Oumarou Ibrahim said - she's in the book - about this - she's a Chadian Wodaabe pastoralist - amazing woman. But somebody asked her about seven generations - do you plan, do you think seven generations ahead, which is, you know, the Haudenosaunee thing in America? And she said, Oh, yeah, of course. But you forget something. And that is that we know exactly what happened seven generations ago. So we see ourselves as a continuity. And it would be anathema to break that link. And so that's what people bring who, who come from these different. And this woman is indigenous and the woman she works with is indigenous, the two are coming together. I mean, again, it may not happen, but my intention isn't swayed. It will happen. I think if it's not these two, it'll be somebody else. Just to be able to legitamately, be regenerative, you really need to ...
Anthony 19:10
Live out what you're saying. Yep. And you are contemplating the podcast that I said could almost be daily, a year ago, you're contemplating one of them, too?
Paul 19:20
I just think we need you here. And obviously, you're not gonna move. But I just think that your podcasts and you - and I remember being interviewed when you first started your podcast, and it's just astonishing. I told you that this is the best interview I've ever had. I remember that was in Melbourne. It was three years ago or so I forget
Anthony 19:20
four maybe - yeah four
Paul 19:22
And just seeing yeah, the growth but your growth and the breadth of knowledge and your connections and the respect you have for others and the way you're able to draw people together and ask really extraordinary questions to really extraordinary people. Yeah, we need something like that in the United States. And so you and I will talk about that offline, for sure.
Anthony 20:09
We will
Paul 20:10
It won't be me!
Anthony 20:12
No, you don't need to do everything. And that four minute clip the regenerators clip that screened at the back end of Regenerating Australia, so a bunch of people in Australia have seen it. Has that got its global launch coming, or has it happened or where's that?
Paul 20:27
December 5th. Yes. Help us! Yeah.
Anthony 20:31
So will this be in cities everywhere and online at the same time? Like, how's it gonna work?
Paul 20:37
Yeah, social media, and groups will launch it. And eventually, I think next spring, it goes on the east side of the UN and goes on the Taj Mahal, but right now on December 5th it goes around the world. And we'll just spread it out and say, everybody, don't send it out before tomorrow. And we'll set it up so that you can't miss it. In some level, status society you're going to hear about and see it
Anthony 21:06
Wonderful.
Paul 21:06
Yeah.
Anthony 21:07
That was the end of our formal conversation. Well, as formal as my conversations get anyway. Here's some of our informal conversation that went a while longer. We talked about a few other episodes on this podcast, starting with the 100th episode, on location at Kachana Station in the Kimberley region of Far North Western Australia.
Paul 21:29
Well, I listened to that podcast, and I mean, it was like, What I loved about it was - I think that was the one about the mandate to kill off the mules
Anthony 21:39
Exactly, yeah, the donkeys
Paul 21:41
Yeah, exactly. And just like, you know, roll your eyes kind of bureaucracy stuff. But I listened to it, and loved it, because the descriptions of the place you know, before and now and what was happening there, I just found that it was one of those podcasts where I mean, I was just entranced. And just the fact that an invasive kind of return to herd and then became a symbiote to the land. Come on. It's, yeah!
Anthony 22:19
Do you know he's since won a Soil Health Champion Award, which the department backs. So it's like, on the one hand, he's regarded as a champion. And on the other hand, the means of getting there... It's classic, right and left hand bureaucratic thing. But hopefully, it's a hopeful thing. Hopefully it does give another means of getting to where it needs to go because it's still in mediation. So there's hope
Paul 22:48
God, I mean for sure want to see the Haggerty's and what they're doing and you know, the freshwater lenses, you know, and all that stuff. But it was that podcast, where - I want to go there. And I just thought, Oh, my God, you know, Anthony's so lucky. And you know, what did he do? He must be a charmer.
Anthony 23:07
I feel very lucky, I tell ya. Yes. Oh, in humble service. Likewise to you my friend. And you know, just as a postscript, that podcast is now the second most listened to behind ours last year.
Paul 23:21
Behind ours?
Anthony 23:22
Yeah.
Paul 23:23
Ours, yours and mine?
Anthony 23:24
Yep. Ours, then Kachana and then - and then - Songlines,
Paul 23:29
Songlines was so important. I mean, that was a teaching. You know. I mean, I have set asides from you. And both of those are set asides, you know, which is like, you gotta listen to this again, you couldn't Paul possibly have received and got everything that's in there in that one listen. And it's not possible, at least in my brain.
Anthony 23:54
No, I agree.
Paul 23:55
And so those are really really brilliant. Really brilliant.
Anthony 24:00
And people want to listen, what do you know? We're interested in this hey?
Paul 24:03
What do you know? I mean, again, it's like stories are the only thing that's going to change people - facts don't change people's minds.
Anthony 24:09
Yeah. Great, Paul. Alright. You got to cook dinner. I've gotta go for a surf. It's amazing out there.
Paul 24:15
Okay. Oh, yeah. God bless and we'll see each other sometime soon. I don't know where or how but...
Anthony 24:22
Here's to that. Alright mate. Thanks a lot.
Paul 24:25
Thank you, much love.
Anthony 24:27
That was multiple bestselling author, entrepreneur and activist Paul Hawken. If you've come here first, tune into the main episode with Paul on Regeneration -A year on, with a few links in the show notes there too. And affirming of Paul's key observation from the midterms, I later heard that Maxwell Frost became the first Gen Z member of Congress to be elected - on a platform that included addressing gun violence, universal health care, and climate action.
Anthony 24:59
I'll be taking a little break over the new year period. as usual, once I get back from the tour with Zach Bush and friends - what a way to cap off another significant year that'll be. I'm looking forward to seeing some of you over there very soon. After that will be some rest with family. I hope you get some of that too. And I look forward to sharing your company again next year as we continue to regenerate the systems and stories we live by.
Anthony 25:01
Before I go, though, a little update on the podcast. Firstly, I'm extremely humbled to be able to say once again this year, that listenership of the podcast has more than doubled last year's high - clocking 200,000 plays for the first time in a calendar year, a couple of months ago. And as you know, hearing from you about the value you're finding in this throughout the year, at times even life altering continues to be the biggest reward.
Anthony 25:57
As you also know, all this is only possible due to the support of a wonderful community of listeners. Very special thanks to all you subscribers, donors and partners of the podcast for keeping the show going and growing through its sixth year. An enormous thank you to my 'Vic friends' in particular once again for your extremely generous, ongoing support. Special thanks too, to very generous longtime supporters, Peter, Lee, Edward, Nelson, Nutrisoil, Oliver, Damon and Paul, and to the rest of the ten other regular donors. This year was also the first full year of the Patreon page. Huge thanks to the now 93 brilliant subscribers who've jumped on board. That includes two more of you this week. Katie Ross, thanks for your very generous support. And Nicole Brammy, thanks so much for your subscription too. Listener Jez, thank you for donating this week also. And Kat thanks for subscribing so very generously, till your income disruption this year. I hope things are smoothing out for you. And finally, thanks as always to Susie, Laura, Ben and more recently Ang for your terrific in kind support. I'm so very grateful to you all for all your contributions and support and look forward to kicking on with you in 2023, including with a few new ideas.
Anthony 27:31
If you are able to join this beautiful community of listeners, and of course enjoy additional benefits, you can do so via the website in the show notes RegenNarration.com. Thanks a lot. And as ever, thanks for sharing the podcast with friends, family and colleagues.
Anthony 27:49
One final announcement, the first change heading into the new year. I'm shifting host platform for the podcast. It's been a long time coming really. SoundCloud has been my host platform till now. And it really isn't set up for podcasts anymore. The change shouldn't affect your listening in any way. It'll still be available where you listen to podcasts and on The RegenNarration website. But if you do experience any glitches, this might be why and will hopefully be short lived. If you're following the podcast on SoundCloud, it'll still be available there too. Just not hosted there. Again, just let me know if you notice anything go wrong. And otherwise I hope you find a better experience in that change too - with clearer shownotes, website player and other benefits.
Anthony 28:39
Well, that's it for 2022. The customer highlights package for the year will be with you when I get back from the tour. Maybe some highlight releases over summer too. But as this will be the final word you'll hear from me for a while, I'd like to wish you all the very best for a wonderful festive season and of course, a regenerative New Year. The music you're hearing is Regeneration, with thanks to Amelia Barden, off the Regenerating Australia soundtrack. My name is Anthony James. Thanks for listening.
Paul 29:31
Hi everyone, this is Paul Hawken and this is Regenernation ... no, I didn't ... [laughs]
Anthony 29:37
Haha, now we're going to have outtakes - all the better!
Paul 29:40
Okay, okay, you got three bad takes. Okay. Hi, this is Paul Hawken. And this is RegenNarration.
Anthony 29:49
Nice
Paul 29:50
You want another one?
Anthony 29:52
Go for it. One for good measure.
Paul 29:53
Okay. Hi everyone. This is Paul Hawken. And this is Regenernation. [laughs] I have to learn how to pronounce your podcast name
Anthony 30:04
It's in your head now. That's right. You can't get it out.
Paul 30:07
Yeah. Okay. Hi everyone. This is Paul Hawken. And this is RegenNarration.
Anthony 30:12
Bang.
Paul 30:13
Still rolling my r's.
Anthony 30:15
It's good.
Paul 30:15
Okay, that's it. I don't think there's anything useful there. Maybe you can snip something together
Anthony 30:19
Oh, I'm so glad we did that.
Paul 30:21
Play 'em all
Anthony 30:22
That's great.
Find more:
Tune into the main episode, ‘Paul Hawken on Regeneration – A Year On (there are a few links in the show notes there too).
And join the global live stream launch of the 'What is Regeneration?' short film - now on Dec 8, 2022 at 1:00 to 2:00am, GMT.
That is:
AEDT: Thursday 8 December at 12pm;
PST: Wednesday 7 December at 5pm;
EST: Wednesday 7 December at 8pm;
AMST: Wednesday 7 December at 10pm
Music:
Regeneration, composed by Amelia Barden, from the soundtrack of the new film Regenerating Australia, available for community screenings now.
Stones & Bones, by Owls of the Swamp.