144. Karen O'Brien
On Quantum Social Change & Mattering More Than We Think
Professor Karen O’Brien is a globally renowned thought leader on climate change impacts and social transformation. She has been heavily involved in the work of the IPCC, and shared in its 2007 Nobel Peace Prize. She’s also been on the scientific advisory board for Project Drawdown, and is the co-founder of cCHANGE, an Oslo-based company that has become a beacon in the space of social transformation. And a few months ago, cCHANGE launched Karen’s new book, called You Matter More Than You Think: Quantum social change for a thriving world.
Karen O’Brien (pic: from the book).
“There are hundreds - more - like thousands, millions of examples of things that work. And to be able to recognize that it’s not that we have to be like, practice quantum social change, but it is actually happening whether we’re aware or not. And to be able to see and tell those stories is essential.”
The by-line reads: have we been underestimating our collective capacity for social change? Spoiler alert – big time! Friend and best-selling author of Regeneration: Ending the climate crisis in one generation, Paul Hawken, says: “You Matter More Than You Think is more than just a book. It is an awakening, a how-to manual showing a new path to social and ecological regeneration.”
It feels like we hear the themes of this conversation in so many other conversations on this podcast, right up to the last couple of weeks. This also feels like chapter 2 to the previous conversation Karen and I shared a few years ago. That’s where you’ll hear more about her fascinating background, and what led to her current passions - along with early ruminations on what’s become the new book. Here, we pick up the thread.
This conversation was recorded online with Karen at home is Oslo, Norway, on 7 November 2022.
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Please note this transcript isn’t perfect, but hopefully serves to provide greater access to these conversations for those who need or like to read.
SPEAKERS
Anthony James (host), Karen O’Brien
Anthony 00:00
You’re with The RegenNarration, exploring how communities are changing the systems and stories we live by. This is independent media, free of ads and freely available, thanks to the support of listeners like you. So special thanks this week to Martin Pell, Simon Allston and Sue Wallwork, for becoming valued subscribers. If you too sense something worthwhile in all this, please consider joining Martin, Simon and Sue, and a great community of supporting listeners, with as little as $3 a month, or whatever amount you can and want to contribute. You can get all sorts of benefits, including of course continuing to receive the podcast with transcripts every week. Just head to the website via the show notes - regennarration.com/Support. Thanks a lot!
Karen 00:47
There are hundreds - more - like thousands, millions of examples of things that work and to be able to recognize that it's not that we have to be like, practice quantum social change, but it is actually happening whether we're aware or not. And to be able to see and tell those stories is essential.
Anthony 01:38
G'day, my name's Anthony James. This is The RegenNarration. And that was Professor Karen O'Brien, co lyricist to the extraordinary music you're hearing. Karen is a globally renowned thought leader on climate change impacts and social transformation. She has been heavily involved in the work of the IPCC, and shared in its 2007 Nobel Peace Prize. She's also been on the Scientific Advisory Board for Project drawdown, and is the co founder of cCHANGE, and Oslo based company that has become a beacon in the space of social transformation. And a few months ago, cCHANGE launched Karen's new book, You Matter More Than You Think: Quantum social change for a thriving world. The byline reads, have we been underestimating our collective capacity for social change? And spoiler alert, big time. Friend and bestselling author of Regeneration: Ending the climate crisis in one generation, Paul Hawken, says: "You matter more than you think is more than just a book. It's an awakening, a how to manual showing a new path to social and ecological regeneration." It feels like we hear the themes of this conversation in so many other conversations on this podcast, right up to the last couple of weeks. This also feels like a Chapter Two to the previous conversation Karen and I shared a few years ago. That's where you'll hear more about her fascinating background. And what led her to her current passions, along with some early ruminations on what's become the new book. Here, we pick up the thread.
Karen 03:36
Hi
Anthony 03:37
Hello Karen, how are you?
Karen 03:40
Good, how are you? Can you hear me Okay?
Anthony 03:42
Yes, you're crystal clear.
Karen 03:44
So you're actually getting out there getting that, like the regen narration - that the narratives are out there, which I think is super - Yeah, like, yeah, we can we can talk about this. I think it's so important to shift the narrative here.
Anthony 03:56
Yeah. Let's do bring that up at some stage. So Karen, what, you know, we spoke three years ago. And wow, has so much happened in three years, including, of course, your book. I'm wondering, we talked a little bit three years ago about, I think this might have come out of talking about some of your experiences with students, but how indeed you experience the state of the world, if you will, on an emotional level - and you talked really frankly and openly then - I'm wondering how it is today, three years on - all that's gone under the bridge since? How are you feeling about the world and where things are at the moment?
Karen 04:38
Yeah, it's a great question, because I think like everybody, you know, it's just overwhelming to see, for example, climate impacts - to see the loss of biodiversity to feel it is just a it's a daily challenge. And I think to you know, the emotional dimensions of it I - as a researcher, it's, it has to be kind of integrated into the research that we're doing. But also to recognize that, you know, like, wow, that we are in the decade that matters. And that, that what we do now is so important. So I go from, you know, just feeling like emotionally, like, distraught about what's going on, but also seeing that possibility and the potential for change. And realizing that, you know, the bar is quite low right now. So doing better doesn't take a lot of, you know, like that there's so much that we could do.
Anthony 05:28
That's so interesting to hear that because I've certainly caught myself of late. And you know, we've - our end of the stick, if you like, has been with floods, just like constant flooding, basically, this year after of course, bushfires that reached international media. And plenty more besides, but I guess those are the acute edges. But even for myself at a local level, seeing the destruction of places that I love, had me I realized, trying to cut off some feeling. And then I realized what went with that was all the feeling of the good stuff. And then reading your book was actually a beautiful point of practice, of being able to stay open, and indeed a practice. And you talk about this in the book, practicing it. And I say that I say that with reference to then some of my experiences of late, that have been sort of documented, if you will, on the podcast have been extraordinary on the level that you write about. But I guess for you, that's what it's like to it's a it's a practice to stay in what you know, and believe to be more like how the world works.
Karen 06:38
Yeah. And I think it is that challenging the - you know, the, like, I tried to, like, put myself or sometimes I asked my students, you know, like, put yourself in the future and look back. And, and, you know, what were we thinking back then, in 2022? What was in our minds? What was the paradigm that was, and what were we missing? And so I'm always trying to just think about what am I missing, you know, what, like, leave no stone unturned, if we really, you know, like, if we want to make a difference, not just for ourselves and others right now, but also in the future. And, but part of that is really, you know, taking in the losses, and there will be losses, and I think that that's the, like, you know, we see them every day and you know, you and Australia experience, you know, just the the magnitude of those, but when you read about the floods in Pakistan, about people working in fields within 50 degrees Celsius heat, you know, there's just and the rivers drying up, it's, it's so it's very hard to hold, but to hold it, we have to, you know, because it is like that is the space to move. Because if we, I think many people don't realize the non linearity of change in that 1.1 degree Celsius, warming is really nothing compared to 1.5, two degrees, three degrees, four degrees. And so, so those differences in a systemic, you know, level of, you know, non linearity and, and that's where I just think that the biggest adaptation we can do as a society really is to shift the way we think about it, and to recognize that we are changing systems - we are, you know, we are the systems that we're talking about.
Anthony 07:05
And the non linearity of time, of course, relates to the, to the way we can change too - but let's come to that in a moment - is there a particular practice that you invoke to be able to stay well, and stay, and we will talk more about this, of course, but the quality of agency that you talk a lot about in your book, to be enacting that - are there particular practices that you invoke for that?
Karen 08:35
I have a whole array of practices, whether it you know, like, you know, maybe nine or 10 years ago, I started with Vipassana meditation, and sometimes go off on silent retreats just to you know, like, kind of calm my nervous system and, and get that sense of, you know, grounding in and also equanimity. But I do yoga, I run, practice the piano, I, you know, like, I just tried to do things that and I think, you know, what I'm recognizing, too, is that, that I actually need a lot more time for that now, because the, the impacts are so the challenges are so great that and I think that that goes for everybody is that to really hold on we need community, we need self care, and we need to really like you know, to be able to move forward we have to be able to kind of ground ourselves in the moment and not get lost in in the despondency and despair, that is just the logical response to what we're seeing in the world.
Anthony 09:34
logical, and certainly within the classical frame isn't, as you've talked about? Alright. So I wonder if a launching pad can be what you did refer to in the book too, that there is a certain narrative out there that we are running out of time perhaps even have run out of time. But you just mentioned the non linearity of time when we take our cues from what we're learning in quantum physics Could you talk to that a little bit about the non linearity of time? And how it relates to social change?
Karen 10:08
Yeah, well, I think, like, we're often thinking in a very linear time, so we put things on a timeline, like the 2030 agenda for the sustainable development goals, and, you know, we will reduce our emissions by 2050. And, and it's kind of as if, you know, we keep pushing things off into this future as if it's on this, you know, a linear line. And I think that, you know, when what, you know, the future is right now, right here, and now and, and so to be able to, like, look from that quantum perspective, which includes like backward causation, and it really kind of is a whole different view of, of what time is, but recognizing that what we're doing right now is actually like creating that space for that you know, what the future can be. And, to me, that's, like, what quantum physics tells about client time is very, like mind blowing. And in the first draft of the book that I put out, just on the, you know, for, like, maybe 800-900 people downloaded, I had a chapter called Time matters. And then I realized that, like, I got some feedback on it. And it was just like, this is above what, you know, like, my comprehension. So I just kind of moved it into this decade matters. But, but I think it's fascinating, you know, and there's people who have been writing about that, you know, like that nonlinear nature of time, but what it really comes down to is that right now matters. And if we look at ourselves as processes, as, you know, collapsing a wave of potential in every moment, then it's like, now And now and now. And now. And, and that goes back to that practice of how do I actually, you know, like, make that decision that is, serves on behalf of the whole rather than just, you know, myself and so, moving towards this, like creating these, like fractals of change that can scale, I think is the most, it's the most important thing we can do now, and it's also very challenging, because we are reactionary, we are very tied up with our own, like ideas in our head and what is, you know, like, right, wrong, and, you know, finding the fault in things. And, and so, yeah, to me, it's a continual practice, and to step out of time, for you know, even just the like that second, and that's why I think practice matters.
Anthony 12:18
Okay, let's delve a little more into some of that terminology. And I think maybe the best way to start could be with entanglement, which, I guess by way of starting that, when you talked about there not being so much parts and wholes in the world, as whole/parts, wholes and parts at the same time, it reminded me of Nora Bateson, when she said, it's not so much an interconnected world, it's not so much that we have parts that we can sort of pick out. It's more like a soup - try taking the salt out of the soup, you can't do it. So it reminded me of that as a metaphor for entanglement. Perhaps Karen, let's start there, to bring people in. I mean, I was happy to, to hear it, it bends your brain a little bit too, but to bring people in who haven't read the book yet as well, what we are coming to understand about ourselves and what I guess you're communicating from the world of quantum physics in hypothesizing about quantum social change?
Karen 13:22
Yeah, because I you know, to me, it's fascinating because it's it's it is an inquiry, and it sounds like what if we are under estimating our collective capacity for social change and non local entanglement becomes then a really important phenomena and metaphor for looking at at our interconnections as part of a whole you know, Whole Earth Cosmos whatever and non local entanglement refers to a phenomena where information about separated particles within a system is revealed when a measurement is made on one particle. So you know, you know, like, when you when you make a measurement on, you know, particle, a, you know, what particle B is and, and that is, um, you know, it's what Einstein referred to as spooky action, it is at a distance, but it really isn't any action, it's a correlation or co relation. So they just shows that relational nature of ourselves and the world around us. And, you know, when we think of, you know, that happened, that's very effective, you know, it's real at the subatomic particle level, and scientists are measuring that over, you know, longer and longer distances and larger and larger, like, particles, even like small proteins, but what it means in terms of social change, some scientists are our researchers are looking at language as a quantum phenomena, where we're collapsing a wave of possible meanings into you know, through our speech acts through our listening. And so when you think about that entanglement through a field of language, and meaning making, you know, you, we talk about, you know, wholes and parts, subjects and objects and in the English language, we're really separating them as if they're very distinct. And I think we don't have that language. And that's why I think we have to just kind of bracket them and recognize that many other indigenous knowledge systems and wisdom, there's other ways to express it through art through poetry through through ways that don't make sense to our, you know, like our rational minds. And so, so I think the entanglement part really is, you know, Karen Burrard, whose work I draw on a lot in the book, you know, talks about our intra actions, and our you know, a gentle realism that, you know, we are actually like, congealing, you know, our agency is this congealing of the material world into what it is. And if you look at what's happening in the world today, you see that, like, wow, we are actually creating a world that is, is it's a logical outcome of the thoughts that preceded it the way we've organized society very, you know, into individualism atomism reductionism, determinism and and that's the the challenge for us right now is to step aside and say, like, wait a minute, where are we coming from? And, and where, you know, what does this mean, for what I how I show up? And what I do?
Anthony 16:16
You related a little tale, of the fire walkers? maybe that's a nice way to communicate in real terms, quote, unquote. Do you want to tell us that story?
Karen 16:29
Yeah, well, I think that there's the story of the fire walkers is a study that was done by some researchers of looking at the connection between, you know, people doing a fire walking exercise, and, and some of the people watching it, and they could see that there was a correlation between the in the nervous systems that was not informational. It was about, you know, like how it was, you know, whether it's mirror neurons, or it's a non causal type of thing, because the people watching we're not actually walking on the fire, but they had the same physiological responses, and from my understanding of the study, and I think that just kind of shows that, you know, we're always influencing others. And what we do how we are, is having these effects that, you know, we might be able to scientists might be able to measure it in that room or something, but we're having effects all over the world. And I think we feel that now, too, with, you know, what's happening in other places actually affects us very much, both negatively and positively. And so it's more to think about how can we actually create those positive changes that are almost like off the radar from from the way we're looking at the world right now?
Anthony 17:39
Yeah, yeah. And therein lies so much more potential. So when you refer to nonlocality, this is what you're talking about. And this, including with language, as you referred to before, raises the prospect that literally everything we do think feel matters, which of course is the title of your book. And then that, I wonder, Karen, perhaps by way of juxtaposition, and you did just refer to it in your book slightly as well, know how, I guess the so called New Age interpretation of this stuff, and how that's been held up to dismiss a lot of this thinking over recent times. Is there part of that, that you'd be distinguishing nonlocality and entanglement from? Like, what should we be on the lookout for when, or how far should we go down the rabbit hole of thinking literally, every thought, every word we come up with every metaphor can be transformational, potentially up against that sort of almost stereotypical New Age interpretation that says, you know, I can dream of a Porsche and it'll turn up in the carport. You've probably thought about this a lot, I imagine?
Karen 18:53
Yeah. Because I think every time you put like quantum with anything, but physics and biology and chemistry and information or computing, or something, it's like, oh, that's woowoo science. And so, you know, and I've been, of course, I've gotten a lot of reactions, like, Oh, what is this, that you're talking about quantum social change, don't put quantum and social together. But I do think that it's, it's really worth thinking about that. And not from this, you know, like, oh, we manifest what we think and everything because that, again, is thinking of like consciousness as this, you know, like, it's a very classical way of interpreting it that I think this and then that happens in a causal way, when what non local entanglement is saying and the collapse of the wavefunction Alexander Wendt, who's developed quantum social theory, you know, he thinks of consciousness as the collapse of the wavefunction into an experience and so, so I think we need to just be very careful and also recognize that this doesn't negate classical physics, you know, and I, you know, I emphasize like, again, and again that, you know, ice melts at certain temperatures and we know that you know, that like that warmer temperatures have influences on ecosystems, etc. So, so we really have to think about it's, to me, it really draws attention to a lot of the things that have been said for centuries and millennia. And, and that social sciences and humanities are saying again, and again, about the importance of narrative about the importance of our language, about the importance of emotions, and experiences and consciousness and, and everything. So I, to me, it just widens the lens of what can be included in science and in science, physicists are the first to say that, you know, reality is not what it seems, and wow, this isn't working in this amazing world. But when we get to the social, we tend to just assume that like, oh, we are just these like, like, almost like billiard balls that are just marching towards our own destruction, because we can't actually collectively work together and get out of our free, you know, like, are socially constructed interests, and hang ups in the shadows, and, and all of that, so. So I just think that wait a minute, we, you know, we can, there's a different quality of agency, that can actually help us to work together in a different way. And that does mean that, you know, for people who just like, oh, well, I'm affecting the entire world, if that's, that's the very nature of climate change, what I do is influencing somebody on, you know, small island states and also into, you know, well into the future, you know, for hundreds of years, so, so to understand myself as part of a system and to take responsibility, you know, having that ability to respond is so important. So when I see that, you know, floods in Pakistan, and, you know, wildfires in Portugal or California, I feel that, like, I am also responsible for that. And I also have a responsibility to do something about that. So it goes both ways. It's like, wow, I am part of I am the system that is actually responsible for this, I am the collective and, and it goes very far away from our very individualistic, you know, like thinking of ourselves is very small, trivial, and the only thing I can do is, you know, like, work on like, carbon footprint and recycle, and everything is like, oh, no, there I have a sphere of influence that is much wider than I think. And that's why I titled the book you matter more than you think, really literally, that it's much more than just our cognitive thinking. And, you know, can be interpreted in so many ways.
Anthony 22:20
yeah. It's a beautiful title for that. So even sustainability as that normative goal is secondary to this. And an even change in that sense. It's, you know, even social change is, in a sense, secondary, in terms of it being an objective anyway isn't it? And so you're talking more about a way of being as a self generator, and self repeater? And I guess that's where the idea of fractals comes into it as well?
Karen 22:52
Yeah, yeah. Cuz I think it is that we're like, we're creating these patterns, you know, again, and again, and, and what is that, you know, what are how do we shift patterns that are inequitable, unsustainable, and, and actually, you know, oppressive, in many ways, and that's where I think we're at in for in, in the, in the world right now is like, recognizing and seeing that these systems do not work for everyone, and many of them will work for no one, at the end of the day, because it's a really the, you know, the idea of, of winners and losers, the fact that we are all in this together is very clear. And at the same time, we recognize that some people are, you know, just really on the edge, and that a half a degree of warming is dangerous climate change for many and, and that so, you know, how do we take, you know, increase our circle of care, I think, and to me, that's the, it goes beyond then just like sustainability is, you know, how do we just, you know, like, maintain what is but how do we actually really generate that world where all life can thrive? And to me, it is about like thinking differently, acting differently, doing things differently?
Anthony 23:59
Yeah, let's bring in the the narrative change that you've referred to in the language change a bit, by way of then expanding how we think about changing ourselves or perhaps even better said, healing ourselves. How you imagine the possibilities for change in those ways. And I guess the place of story, you know, all that?
Karen 24:20
Yeah, I think there's like so many different entry points for coming at change. But the power of words the power of metaphors, the power of stories is one of them because they kind of you know, metaphors create our reality. And much of science is based on metaphors already. And so if we can be conscious about the language that we're using, is it a divisive language? Is it a you know, like, because a lot of like, our economics comes from our understanding of science and you know, we ended up you know, even for nature, you know, alien species, and things that we draw on our understanding even quantum physics, the language they have had for it was drawn from language that existed already, there wasn't then like creating a new thing like quanta, you know, something small measurable packet of energy. And so to be able to, you know, like think about those entry points for shifting the story shifting the narrative where we go from like people as the problems to looking at people as the solutions. And from going into, you know, sustainability is you must do this, and you must do that turning people into objects to be changed on behalf of you know, this or that, to the subjects of change based on what matters to them. And recognizing that, you know, we all are entangled, you know, as, you know, we all care about equity, we all care about, you know, that you can't, even if you don't realize it, you know, like we are, we are wired for our connections and for equity as, as we can see that, you know, our brains are social, and, and that social part of our brain, it feels pain in the same places where we feel physical pain. And to me that makes it very, you know, like there's so it kind of widens the scope of what we need to do, whether we're talking about trauma healing, whether we're talking about, you know, how do we organize societies to take to take better care of young people, older people that are how do we change, transform our education systems, to help create that sense of individual agency, collective agency systems, you know, changing and things so, so to me that it just really opens up a whole different lens not to do all different things, but to think about how can we do things in a different way? And, you know, qualitative shift in our interventions?
Anthony 26:36
Yeah. Because so much of what I think, I guess, probably generally, and certainly, while I was reading your book is, so we're 100 years or so into quantum physics being around. I think, what keeps us in the classical paradigm, when we're a century on, from transcending that - not doing away with, as you said, but transcending that. And I guess this is what this is partly why what you're touching on here is the we're still using the old language, the old metaphors, and, and we do need to change them.
Karen 27:12
Yeah. And I think that, you know, science itself, it's, it uses quantum physics as a, you know, a tool as the, you know, the matrices, the algorithms, and it's very, it's the most successful scientific theory that we have. And when, in the 1970s, the fundamental physics group in California got into consciousness and things and it was like, it's a fascinating history of it, that is, you know, like to talk about how they actually challenged the science, and then came up with a lot of the things that are being used today for quantum encryption and quantum computing. And, and so they, the book is how the hippies saved physics, and is my I love that I just forgetting the name. Yeah. But it really is that, you know, like, science has this, like, this is science, and this is what it's doing. Don't you know, this, this social is, is something separate. And I think that when we start to look at science as social and put the subject back into science as and, and recognize that the observer actually influences the measurement that we are part of one system, then you know, it opens up just different ways of looking at problems, and a wider scope for looking at solutions.
Anthony 28:23
Hmm, I was so moved by some of your, I guess, talk of where people are changing the language and the narrative and those frames and you talked about Tyson Yunkaporta, fellow Australian, obviously, indigenous Australian, who wrote Sandtalk and has been on the podcast and comes up a bit more too on the podcast, and how he used in sand talk, the pronoun that is familiar to him/them of 'us-two' - equivalent to us two, together - a pronoun we don't have, obviously with classical understandings in our language, of separateness. And you mentioned other cases too. And I was very fond of, I sort of feel like I want to mention the Mayan exchange you brought up because I spent time with the Maya in Guatemala, this exchange where it says, one person says I'm another you. And the response is, you're another me, lak'esh a lak 'in - I've probably butchered it but I'll give my best effort from in homage to the people I was with back then. And you yourself in your book, then go about, as you alluded to briefly earlier, using symbol and some of these conjunctions of nominally separate pronouns as we understand them. These are some of the - is it even right to call it play? Like some of the play or experimentation that you're, you're inviting and encouraging, as we try and create new forms of speaking - not just even new terms necessarily, just new forms of speaking and understanding and and telling story.
Karen 29:54
Yeah, and you can see how challenging it is when you know all the discussions about people you're talking about pronouns and differently what is the pronoun you want to be referred to by - and so when we start to change our own grammar, it's, you know, it can be very challenging because we are wired, we have practice speaking a certain way. And yet to, you know, there's something really beautiful, I think about those examples you gave us, you know, to be able to see, you know, the other in you and that we are connected. And in our everyday classical world, we're always othering others, you know, people who don't share our worldviews or beliefs, or, you know, that it's very easy to be like, Who are these people and, and forget that, that, you know, like, what is it that that brings us together as humanity and, but also to recognize that the way that it's not just random, but it's about how we have organized society, our healthcare systems, our economic systems, social systems, that, that there's a, that we're producing the types of divisions that we're creating, and the fragmentation and the polarization isn't just something that, you know, just happens, but it's been fed by these narratives, whether in social media, whether on you know, in on television, in stories and things that we've, we've almost been sold it this idea that we are separate, that we are trivial, that, you know, like just to not be able to think that and I think that disempowers us when it comes to responding to issues like climate change, and biodiversity loss, and you know, the ocean degradation and inequality, etc. So, so when, you know, when you look at it from this perspective, it really is like one big relationship problem. And that once we address, one, you know, and climate change is my entry point, we have to address all of them because you can't solve climate change or address it and have, you know, some people, like lose it, you know, that can't be a world that is sustainable for some and not for others.
Anthony 31:47
I love that - one big relationship problem, which does allude to, again, what you briefly mentioned before, the trauma. So you've said that healing country and healing climate, if you like, is really about healing ourselves. And and indeed, the foreword to your book then is really powerful, I think, and how it talked about - what were they adverse childhood experiences, and that most adults, like significantly most adults, so most of us, and, and a good whack of children half of all children have experienced adverse childhood experiences. And that this, this matters, this is part of what keeps us if you like, in the old paradigm, but part of then what is the way out?
Karen 32:34
yeah, I think it's, it's essential especially because we continue to traumatize people. You know, we have a war in Europe, we have COVID-19, we are not producing healthy human beings. And I think we all feel that right now. And there's so much work going on about trauma healing, now the collective healing, collective trauma and, and so many people writing about this really inspiring and Christina Bethel, who works in public health at Johns Hopkins University, and she points out that not just it's not just about adverse childhood experiences, but positive childhood experiences can also have a, you know, like, an amazing impact on that. people's health. And so she's really looking at resilience, family resilience, community resilience, and, and that I think, is where we have to, you know, really, like, get to the deeper human dimensions of the issue, if we want to solve if we want to be healing the planet, we have to heal ourselves at the same time, because, again, you know, we are nature, it's not separate from us, and how we, how we treat nature, and I think that that's where at some point, we will just go like, maybe future generations will look back and go, Wow, what were we doing? What were we thinking how you know, that that's, we look back and just think that there was a really, it was a really, like strange time that we're that we're living in. So the nice thing about this time now is that, you know, so many people are, there's so many modalities for healing, and so much information about it. So it's the question then is, who is it accessible to? And how do we, you know, how do we integrate that into healthcare system so that it is more like healing systems, rather than fix it in a very classical mechanistic way?
Anthony 34:16
Yes, yes, indeed, I think it was Christine talked about relational healing methods that that can interrupt traumatic impact. And then interestingly, a lot of that revolves around caring for other people and caring for children that that's what can heal our own stuff. there's a beautiful poetry in that and I guess that's what you're saying, overall, there's a beautiful poetry in how we're coming to understand social change in the context of how the world works.
Karen 34:46
Yeah. And I think that that's a you know, like that the potentiality you know, is just such a like, to me, that's a very powerful world because it just shows where it shows that that how, you know, like that there's, you know, might look like, Oh, this is so improbable, we're going to be you know, heavy You know, 2.7 degree world, there's nothing we can do about it. But then it's like, no, the potential exists right here right now. And it's in all of us. And it's at a relational potential, it's about, you know, it's about really like unleashing that potential in everyone. And that means that it's not about like, reducing people to just that this is who you are, and this is how you are this way. But to see that, like, what is what is that possibility, because everybody has a sphere of influence. And you know, you can say at the small, you know, what I do, you know, my daily life, what I eat, when I shop shop for what I don't shop for, all of that does have an influence, but we're talking we all have much wider spheres of influence, whether it's a like football club, a church, a workplace, a city, you know, that there, there's so many different places that we're intervening, and that's where it, you know, getting to the, the fractals, that you know that if a quality of agency that really goes beyond the particular scale that we think we're in, to think of like, wow, this is, you know, this is affecting the whole,
Anthony 36:01
it was so interesting how you talked about instead of thinking scale out or scale up to scale deep in that way.
Karen 36:10
Yeah. And that goes to, you know, the researchers in sustainability science that have been pointing out, scaling up scaling out scaling deep, even some are saying, scaling down. So in geography, you know, we talk a lot about scale, place and space, and, and things, you know, there's like, what scale is a construction that we create, you know, to make sense of that world? And what if we actually get rid of scale? And just really look at ourselves in it, you know, in a, as if that what we do matters? Across those scales, you know, like, yeah, so you can see that I have to use scale to talk about scale, you know, that we that we are always influencing the whole parts?
Anthony 36:50
Yeah, yet that there's this sort of optimal range in, in your lovely sort of diagrammatic representation - in powers of 10. Between yourself and the global sphere, there is this sort of sweet spot you talked about where it's, it's between what you call communities and meta communities - sort of about the area you were just describing sort of off the top of your head, wasn't it? Where it's nominally between what was it? 10,000 and 100,000 people?
Karen 37:17
Yeah. And that comes, you know, the power of 10 by Mark McCaffrey and Avi Bowman and, and his colleagues and things. And I think that that's, you know, like, that is the sweet spot for where we can reduce emissions, the best and everything. And I think that when we put the individual into that into the picture, that, you know, we are also we are the sweet spot, to, you know, like that we are because we're engaging in those communities, we can engage at those levels, and all of them, and I think every single one of us has that capacity to be influencing, you know, not just to ourselves, our families, our neighborhoods, our communities, our city, you know, like, we're, we're all in that. But I think if we want to look for solutions to global challenges, we have to be able to look at what they refer to as Glocal. And Indra Adnan who's working on fractal politics, she's talking about, like Cosmo, local, you know, it's it's not a it's not like this stacked hierarchy. But it's like, wow, how do we actually impact those around us at bigger and bigger and bigger scales? And until we're actually recognizing that we're impacting future generations as well?
Anthony 38:22
Yeah. Well, that's the underlying premise, isn't it that we're called to live - in mattering more than we think - it's a call to heal and then live out values of oneness, if you like, the values that come with thinking that you are me and I am you - living that out in every way we possibly can. And perhaps this is a nice place to bring in Karen before I'd like to get to some actual practical observations of it too. But the superposition, that's an amazing frame, and for me, it was a real moment in the book where it sort of went clunk a little bit, and I saw things differently. In terms of the potentiality you talked about before, all the ways we can be stuck in linear views of time and change. And this, this is a way of thinking about it, that really departs significantly.
Karen 39:17
Yeah, that whole idea of like wave particle duality and both and that you can exist as both until a moment that you make a decision and measure, you know, like, you've collapsed a reality into this or that, I think it's, it is, you know, if we think of ourselves, like always, in these super positions, we open up the possibility space, the potential for doing things differently, I don't have to always react the same way or choose the same things or decide this or that I can actually, it's really is that getting to that like multi layered, you know, like these properties can exist at the same time, but we only in our perceptions, we only can, you know, have information about one part of it and not the other and so, being able to move toward that both and perspective is I think, like, that's a really important step for us as a species right now, to go away from the either or right wrong and everything to see like that being able to hold that paradox. And much of this, you know, the the book and a lot of the thinking, this is really an inquiry because we don't know, you know, like, there's so many interpretations of quantum physics, and we, we haven't explained it, we can use it, we can, you know, talk about it, and you know, the wonders of it, but but the explanation of like, what is that? What is the nature of reality? is still this, you know, like a big question and an mystery that probably science itself cannot answer, to give a definitive answer. And so it's, it's, to me, it's that, like, just to be able to open our minds to thinking of ourselves as part of the world that we are generating at this, you know, you know, when I start with a decade that matters, that it really is, you know, like, like I said the same thing, 10 years ago, we're in the decade that matters, I probably will say the same thing. And 10 years from now, science is telling us when we're looking at, like, you know, potential tipping points in terms of ice sheet melting, and permafrost and ocean circulations, it's like, we actually, you know, like, we have to take this seriously. And that's where I think I was, I was so compelled to write this book, even though I was like, I, you know, it took a lot out of me just to try to make sense of what it you know, what is this? And I really had to search for, you know, like, how do you make sense of this from a very like, to convince myself that yes, you matter more than you think, was was part of it? Because, you know, it really, there's, it's probably the most important message we can give people right now, is that, you know, every action matters, and you matter. And so, yeah, you're part of this.
Anthony 41:48
Yeah. And paradoxically to the classical mind, this can actually generate in not thinking of urgent outcomes, or whatever, can actually generate faster change.
Karen 42:02
Yeah, because I think I talked about in the book, and I like from Dr. Monica Sharma, who I've been working with on these, you know, three spheres of transformation. You know, she talks about urgency, you know, like, you can take the seriousness of urgency, but not the stress of urgency, because when we respond urgently, we are probably likely to then just kind of go for the most logical, like, let's just do geoengineering or let's, you know, like that we go away from, you know, we create more problems than we solve. And so being able to relax and see from what is the best move right here right now. And, you know, for me, in practice, people always say, like, what do you what does this actually mean? And, and to me, it does make me more aware. And when I'm walking down the street, I just look at people and say, Oh, you matter, look at trees, you matter and everything, but also recognizing that, okay, if I decide to, you know, it's, it's raining out today, you know, like drive or walk or take the bus or things like that, that those decisions matter too, they are influencing the whole. And so it's not just trivial. And, and so and then making me more thoughtful about what I do, why I do it, and what are those impacts? And how could I have the biggest impact? And often it's not just about doing those things, but it's about the conversations we have about them. And that's where, you know, being able to talk without othering people are turning them into objects are saying you should or you have to, but really recognizing, like, what is important for us all right now. And I think digging, digging deeper is really essential right now. And then seeing also like, wider, you know, so the wider and deeper solutions are what we need.
Anthony 43:34
Yeah, there was a podcast you had recently with, was it Paloma Pavel on the Cities & Society's podcast? And you talked about - I mean, you had practical examples in your book, too. but these ones really stood out to me that she brought to the table that relate to this, don't they? Interestingly, there was a line in there. I can't remember if you or she said it - proceed at the speed of trust.
Karen 43:34
That was Palama's. Yeah
Anthony 43:34
that line was said in our federal parliament with our new independent female MP, out of the revolution that really occurred, or at least the start of one in Australia in May, I think it was - earliar this year with the federal election that changed our parliament - elected seven or eight new independent all women from around the country. And our seat was one of them. She used that in her first speech in Parliament. I don't know where she picked it up. But it'd be interesting if you had different sources to - it would sort of reinforce the point wouldn't it? That things - that value set - things said and done in that value set spread. But she had some great stories to tell about actual experiences in cities. One was San Francisco. One was New York. Did any of that really grip you? Or are there other stories that have really gripped you in ways that this has played out?
Karen 44:53
Well, I think like Paloma Pavel's work in community is you know at the frontlines of climate change, you know, they just show that potential, they just show the possibilities, kind of, and she has a model of, you know, like of how, like a compass for how to work with those. And to me that and looking into their hundreds more of, you know, like 1000s, millions of examples of things that work and to be able to recognize that it's not that we have to be like, practice quantum social change, but it is actually happening, whether we, whether we're aware or not, and to be able to see and tell those stories is, is essential. And to me, like to have those conversations, and that's one reason I wrote the book, also to generate conversations to open up an inquiry to see how we could take what already is being, you know, in place, and, you know, kind of shine a spotlight on it, and say, Yes, and here is, you know, this happening, and also then being aware of where, where do they fail, where power politics interests, you know, where we get divisions? And, you know, because I think that to be, you know, within that the political sphere, there's, there's people who are very much averse to, to change, in addition, you know, changes in the status quo. And so to be able to work skillfully, collectively, for that, it's not just about like going against, and, you know, pushing against, but it's like, how do we shift those conversations? How do we shift the narrative? How do we actually disrupt those dynamics that are actually killing us?
Anthony 46:27
Yeah. I was so taken when Paloma talked about the San Franciscan example, that the academic that had come into their community processes, was sort of bailed up and said, Okay, first step, come and meet the elders. It's all about what you just talked about, and that recurred in all these other stories, and that they ended up having extraordinary successes in these cases, at some scale, like you're talking about significant transport budget in San Francisco, that was that case. And she said, they were all transformed in the process. And indeed, we're seeing this in Australia - I had a recent episode with a woman who's working with communities who have been coal producing communities in transition, and very similar themes, practices, outcomes in the making. You're right. The stories are everywhere, aren't they?
Karen 47:16
Yeah, that nonlocality is there.
Anthony 47:19
The nonlocality is there, Yeah. But not everyone's accessing those stories are they? Are there not enough tellers of the stories? Or do we need to do something more there? Or just more of us jump in?
Karen 47:32
Yeah, I think that more people need to tell that story. And we see from social media that you know, social media kind of highlights the negative the ones that go against. And and it's not the, you know, the the beautiful stories, and the news in general doesn't highlight the positive story, although there is a movement towards constructive journalism and telling stories. So I think that's a really important thing, but how do we, you know, share the, I think, sharing the ideas of what because often, we just think, Oh, we're just so alone, this is one little case in San Francisco, or in Perth, or, you know, here or there. And we don't realize that it's a like this entangled web of actions taking place around the world. And if we, again, it goes to like that, that just by the mainstream narrative, is actually forcing us to underestimate our capacity. And in the book, I also point out, drawing on the work of Paulo Freire and Pedagogy of the Oppressed and Pedagogy of Hope that, you know, their unity and power of people can be very dangerous. And yet, you know, that power has to be grounded in equality of, you know, in, in the values that apply to the whole because of powerful people that, you know, can be just oppressively powerful also, and fragment the world and fight, you know, destroy species, destroy the climate, etc. So so it's important that we really think about, you know, how we can how we can actually change that the that narrative, just to bring it down to the values that matter for all of us.
Anthony 49:06
Yeah, you're touching on my old Latin American days there Karen, with Paulo, that really, those texts are on my shelf, well battered. Before we wind up Karen, I wonder, do we need - Well, I guess you've said in a way we need more processes. I'm conscious that your transformational leadership course continues, and you've had a 2022 community involved in that I believe, and has that continued to be revelatory in these kinds of ways? And should we look at doing more of that, too?
Karen 49:37
Yeah, no, these courses really are about putting putting the quantum social change into practice. And you know, by looking at like, kind of like the, the tools and templates that we need to strategically design for systems change that produces results, but it is about, you know, like, who I am, how I show up and you know, how do I create that kind of fractal quality of agency so that I can, you know, whatever my outcomes are and and ideas are so, you know, what I've been, you know, have done them for five times now and I learned every single time you know, you know, improve my, you know, deep listening and speaking responsibly and, you know, getting beyond the my background conversations, but also thinking about, Okay, what needs to shift because often we talk about transformation, as you know, becomes a blah, blah, blah, word, but you know, what, are we actually talking about shifting, you know, from this very, you know, reductionist polarizing perspective to one that is more unifying that one that, you know, that sees, and recognizes that potential, how do we shift power structures? How do we, and what's been really inspiring is seeing just how it hits people, when, when they show up and in the, you know, various first session on, you know, what is important for me and for all life, you know, that that is like, speaking from that stand, you suddenly open up a whole a very powerful space for engaging in the, you know, political and the practical spheres. And say, you know, to me with, it's been so inspiring to also to see just how people can get it in very quickly and shift, shift things, you know, their projects, their everyone comes in with a project or a breakthrough initiative. And that potential there, there's tools, you know, that it's not like, it's not like voodoo science or anything, but it is, it comes from like the neurosciences, it comes from language theory, it comes from everything that, you know, that we've been talking about in science that so it's not, you know, it's not difficult, but it takes courage to show up.
Anthony 51:48
And we talked about the cChallenge project last time, too. So I'll leave people to listen to that, for the in depth explanation of what it is, but you were just going more public with it outside of the school context. And then COVID came, of course, but I'm wondering, will you be persisting? Have you been persisting with that?
Karen 52:08
Yeah, we've been persisting it, especially in schools, but now like, but trying to really build it into this, what I would call like, a You Matter movement, because doing an experiment with change for 30 days, just as an object to you know, look at it, explore it from the practical, political and personal dimensions, is such a powerful way to think about, you know, how do I disrupt patterns? How do I establish new ones? How do I engage in different conversations about change? Because when it's an experiment, people are much more open to talking about, like a why, you know, why are you eating a plant based diet? Or why are you You know, why are you picking up trash while you're doing this? And you generate those, those conversations, and then you hear stories from your neighbors about, you know, local foods or, or things in it just as a much more inviting than me going out and saying, like, I'm reducing my carbon footprint, and you should, too. Yeah. And because that makes people feel like guilty, and then you and then you right away start like, Oh, why should I do this when oil company, you know, the government's are still investing in oil. And then you, you start to, you know, the point of these experiments really, is to start to, you know, to think differently about change. And I see it as a really strong entry point for all the other work that we're doing. And you know, that as an entry point for quantum social change and mattering
Anthony 53:23
big time. Yep. And this does feel a bit like a chapter two of the book of our conversations, Karen, and there's more detail and all that in the chapter one for those listening here today. Now, you might remember, we talked about music, when we closed that last conversation as I do every conversation, and you've said, music is at the heart of quantum social change. And for that matter, the arts in general. And I have to say, I mean, my wife even picked up your book yesterday, because she's looking forward to her turn, which she gets, now I get to hand it over. The artwork is unbelievable. And for that matter, the whole production is has a beauty to it. So you know that I know, I can feel that you and the artist. And for that matter, even the designer are again enacting and embodying what we're talking about in the very project. So as a segue to what piece of music you would take us out with or describe to our listeners in this conversation, Karen, what comes to mind or has come to mind of late that has moved you?
Karen 54:31
Yeah, I think the linking the art and the music, my my collaboration with Tone Bjordam on the art, you know, during the COVID time was just a wonderful experience because she could express you know, we had these dialogues about you know, consciousness matters and what that would look like and, and it was just such a great back and forth and the music that you know, sitting during COVID and, and working on this book, my son is in a band and called the eternal page and and He had a song called, Wildflower meadow. And I still like I would just listen to it over and over again because it just, it just kind of resonates with exactly what I'm thinking about in terms of quantum social change. And I told that to Tone, and she just, you know, like, drew a beautiful wildflower meadow with bees and flowers and, and everything and so so I'm just thinking about that creative possibility that there's opening up to, you know, like, you just see the joy that my son and his friends get of making music and putting it out there and that creativity. And so, you know, I guess the segue would be like that, you know, music matters and creativity matters, you know, like, and we had during the COVID webinars about what matters. And I think it is the resonance that we create with other people is, and that is like, it is almost like that, how do we create a new type of Symphony for social change?
Anthony 55:54
Yes, well, you're talking about, certainly my personal ultimate experience of everything we're talking about, though, perhaps it's been rivaled now, actually, with all this, basically, but was in a band and with a very much - I mean, you talk in the book too, about the jazz of physics, and how improv is a bit of an analogy for this stuff, too. And, and really, you commune around that and you listen and you open to where someone's going next. And that's not negated. You build on that. I had to I have a chuckle too, because I remember you chose a Creedence Clearwater Revival song last time. And I went and checked out the Eternal page on Spotify. And it had very similar overtones, so he's not fallen far from the tree.
Karen 56:38
Yeah, he's very much like 60s Psychedelic rock inspired.
Anthony 56:43
So am I, awesome. That's great Karen. Well, I'll leave you to your lectures preparations, hey? And thank you once again. It's been wonderful. And thanks for your book.
Karen 56:52
Thank you. It's lovely to talk to you again, and I look forward to future conversations with you as well.
Anthony 57:21
That was Professor Karen O'Brien, the globally renowned author of 'You matter more than you think: Quantum social change for a thriving world'. For more on Karen, the book and some of the other things we talked about here, see the links in our program details. And if you'd like to hear our previous conversation on the podcast, head to Episode 42. And a quick update on the December tour of another previous podcast guest, Zach Bush - the Byron Bay event is already sold out I'm told, and events in Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne are also selling fast. For those interested you can find details on The RegenNarration website. I'm looking forward to seeing some of you over there soon!And that's with thanks as always, to the generous supporters who have helped make this episode possible. If you're enjoying what you hear, please consider joining this community of supporting listeners so I can keep the podcast going. Just head to the website via the show notes regennarration.com forward slash support. Thanks again. And if you feel like it, share this episode with someone you know who you think might like it. I'll leave you with Wildflower Meadow by The Eternal Page. My name is Anthony James. Thanks for listening.
Find more:
On Karen and her book ‘You Matter More Than You Think: Quantum social change for a thriving world’.
A 6-minute film of the book launch.
Transformative leadership course.
Tune into our previous conversation on episode 42, ‘The Most Powerful Solution to Climate Change: On how people, systems and consciousness transform’.
Artist Tone Bjordam.
Music:
Wildflower Meadow, by The Eternal Page (featuring Karen’s son Jens Stokke).
The Deep Ocean is Calling, composed by Eva Holm Foosnæs with lyrics by T Aarskog and Karen O'Brien.