142. Dianne & Ian Haggerty on Tapping into Natural Intelligence
With live audience on the farm
Longer term listeners to this podcast will feel increasingly familiar with Ian and Di Haggerty, creators of what Charles Massy has called their world breakthrough regenerative farming operation. But you won’t quite have heard them like this. Just last Monday, a capacity audience of 170 people from every state in Australia (and even a few continents) flocked to the shearing shed on one of the Haggerty farms in the WA wheatbelt, for a special day out. Years in the making, this was to be an exploration of what they call Natural Intelligence farming – what it means, how it works, and how they got here - in a way they’d never done before.
Gathering round Di and Ian on a tour of the farm (pic: Anthony James).
“She’d come up and say I’ve just been on the phone to Jane and we’re getting it’s not right to seed this paddock. And you know, in the early days, I used to resist a fair bit and I’d say oh bloody hell, we’re not shifting now. By Jesus, I soon learned. Because it always come up and bit me on the ass. So learning to trust that, then learning how to tap into it yourselves. And if it wasn’t for their persistence, it’s pretty easy to go back to what you thought you knew you were doing.”
With the need and appetite growing for what they’re offering, there’s a feeling among a growing number of people that it’s time to share more of ourselves and put it all on the line. So in that spirit of generosity, Di offered a 45 minute presentation, before Ian joined us on stage.
This conversation was recorded live at the Haggerty farm in the WA wheatbelt on 24 October 2022.
Click on the photos below for full view, and hover over them for descriptions where added.
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Please note this transcript isn’t perfect, but hopefully serves to provide greater access to these conversations for those who need or like to read.
SPEAKERS
Anthony James (host), Ian & Di Haggerty (and a couple of audience questions)
Anthony 00:00
You're with The RegenNarration, exploring how communities are changing the systems and stories we live by. This is independent media, free of ads and freely available, thanks to the support of listeners like you. So special thanks this week to Clayton Hairs for jumping on board, and to Bush Tekniq for your very generous annual subscription. If you too sense something worthwhile in all this, please consider joining Clayton and Bush Tekniq, and a great community of supporting listeners, with as little as $3 a month, or whatever amount you can and want to contribute. You can get all sorts of benefits, including of course continuing to receive the podcast, now with transcripts, every week. Just head to the website via the show notes - RegenNarration.com/Support. Thanks a lot!
Ian 00:46
She'd come up and say I've just been on the phone to Jane and we're getting it's not right to seed this paddock. And you know, in the early days, I used to resist a fair bit and I'd say oh bloody hell, you know, we're not shifting now. By Jesus, I soon learned. Yeah, because it always come up and bit me on the ass. So learning to trust that, then learning how to tap into it yourselves. And if it wasn't for their persistence, you know, it's pretty easy to go back to what you thought you knew you were doing.
Anthony 01:24
G’day, my name’s Anthony James, this is The RegenNarration, and that was Ian Haggerty. Longer term listeners to this podcast will feel increasingly familiar with Ian and Di Haggerty, creators of what Charles Massy has called their world breakthrough regenerative farming operation. But you won’t quite have heard them like this. Just last Monday, a capacity audience of 170 people from every state in Australia flocked to the shearing shed on one of the Haggerty farms in the WA wheatbelt, for a special day out. Years in the making, this was to be an exploration of what they call Natural Intelligence farming – what it means, how it works, and how they got here - in a way they’d never done before. With the need and appetite growing for what they’re offering, there’s a feeling among a growing number of people that it’s time to share more of ourselves and put it all on the line. So in that spirit of generosity, Di offered a 45 minute presentation, before Ian joined us on stage. Incidentally, you’ll hear reference to people like globally renowned soil microbiologist, Walter Jehne, co-founder of natural intelligence farming, Jane Slattery, and director of the 2040 documentary, Damon Gameau (whose recent Tedx Sydney talk – Retelling the story of humans & nature - was played earlier in the day). So join us, with fields of wildflowers and increasing wildlife, thriving amongst their extraordinary crops, native grasses and grazing sheep, with almost no chemical use, as far as the eye can see. And imagine the sounds and smells of a wheatbelt shearing shed, welcoming you in to this very special conversation.
Anthony 03:18
Alright, welcome back everyone, to an extended conversation with our hosts, Di and Ian Haggerty. What a great pleasure it's been to get to know this globally renowned family in recent years. We'll explore some of their story here, and how they found that the wisdom and intelligence of nature can transform a landscape an agricultural business and the people involved. This is a very personal story. It's a story of change on the way to developing their world breakthrough operation. Di, Ian and sons and now extended families and great team here on the farm, farm over 24,000 hectares in this region. They have a life mission to help facilitate positive global change by rebuilding soils in semi arid regions, and producing and marketing premium food, fiber and beverage, which in turn supports the nutritional and microbiological needs of humanity and planetary health. They along with Jane Slattery have dubbed this farming practice natural intelligence. Let's hear a bit about it. Can we give Di and Ian Haggerty another big hand?
Anthony 04:39
It's amazing to see that presentation Di. And I remember back to 2019 I think it was when I came up here to record a podcast with you guys and I hadn't been here. Don't think ... maybe I think I'd met you briefly, but I certainly hadn't been here. And that was at the time when there'd been three successive seasons of 100 mil of rain only. And I'm so glad I got in before the rain started. Indeed it started that night. Uncannily enough. I'm so glad I got in before it to see that that was still there. Even with that little rain, because now as you said, you can sort of see it around, but not in the diversity we're talking about here. But you can, it can look good, even if it hasn't got those underlying features. And having been there then I was just so blown away at something, you know, there are a couple of things you sort of just glanced over here. But things that really struck me were the freshwater lens on top of one of the - well what had been dry salt bed. And then a fresh water lens had come on top of it, because of the purifying nature of what was being regenerated in the soils. And also it was the sheep that told them because the sheep started to drink and they were like what's going on here? That you haven't mulesed or drenched sheep in forever, that you describe plant pests being encircled, like the immune function of the plants was happening. When you do apply chemical on occasion to kickstart places, no residue is present in your product. Again, the purifying ... all these things really blew my mind. And obviously at scale. I'm wondering for you guys, and Ian I'll throw to you first hey, give Di a break - what for you, still grabs you as the richest reward or the most surprising or amazing aspect of what happens here?
Ian 06:31
Probably the thing that grabs me most, it never ceases to amaze me the change that I see. And if you just slow down in your day to day life, and actually look what's actually happening around you at a bit closer inspection, there's there's massive things that happen that we really just disregard. And it just never ceases to amaze me some of the results - the goals that it's actually kicking you know, and whether it be in wool quality and production, or grain quality and quantity and regeneration of land and animals and insects and all the flora that's all coming back. So just that change in the system, how quick it can recover. And how quick it can come back. And by just tweaking your system a bit, you can actually work in with nature. And that is our goal - so our goal is to produce healthy fiber and food to use as much modern technology as we can. And as you can see, by the level of equipment we got we don't spare anything on that anymore. You know, we have all the gadgets, but then incorporate this natural system into those systems. And, probably the other thing that really gets me too is how much it de-stresses the whole operation. You know, we're not pushed to do any certain things by any certain deadlines and get out and get these things done. It takes a lot of stress out of the system. And then you see those results roll in.
Anthony 07:58
I'd love it if we get to a point where we can say that, well, first of all, as a city dweller, my food providers, I want to hear them being able to talk like that. And I'd love to then hear - imagine people talking about owning a home in those terms, or, or even climate change in those terms - that we take the stress out of it, that we can reverse these trajectories. Di you mentioned before, again, in passing, epigenetics. It's a key aspect of what's going on here, right? And a science that's only really turned up in the last 10 or so years. But the more we learn about it, the more instructive it is. Can you give us a bit more on that? And I guess by way of your journey, how have you come to relate to it? What is it and how have you come to understand it and then witness it?
Di 08:43
It has primarily been from the livestock originally, just seeing that change with the self replacing flock, without me doing Big Lots of stuff. You see a lot of stud operations, and they're measuring so much different things and doing a fabulous job of genetic gain. But what we've found is that the different outcomes by not having too much focus on that, the animals are working those bits out for themselves in a way that I couldn't anticipate. Yeah, and I've just been blown away by seeing that by taking my overall, you know, imprint off that. And just having those animals do it. And so the times when you get rams that get in at the wrong inappropriate time, but by crikey, you know, those sheep know what they're doing. They know, they sense what's coming ahead, and they can adjust. So yeah, we just have really good productivity from those animals and more than you would dream but when it comes to epigenetics too I think even like with the grain, being able to - at least one good thing in Australia we're able to keep our own grains and that grain itself can be adapted to landscape over time and be more resilient. So the intelligence of that seed as it hits the ground and what it needs to do, and talking to Walter a lot about that. So that seed senses that soil type instantly - knows whether it needs to put most of its energy into the root mass to start with. And as he said in those first few years, while it's building that soil capacity, again, it will be directing a lot of energy into the root mass and where it can build its resilience capacity. And then over time, you'll find as that soil improves, then there'll be even greater imprint onto the plant as well. And that's why we've been using the foliar sprays too, to support a plant, if it's into a more toxic soil with low pH or compaction, giving it another boost throughout the season. So it can come in at a foliar level, and crank it up a bit. But even just epigenetics at a personal level, just looking at the boys, all been raised with this kind of way of operating. And just their - all three of them have got a different ability to sense - they've got a great ability to sense people. They're very in touch with what's going on around them, and very perceptive people, and I think way more than what Ian and I have ever been. So I think I look to the future generations. And there's some wonderful young people around like the SmartSoil guys and some really great people and Rach too, is a very in touch young woman, and just where the future is going to be with those young people. So you're seeing that real positive outcome from that.
Anthony 11:31
Yeah, because a real feature of it is the intergenerational interplay, isn't it? And at ways unconscious and literally underground - extraordinary levels of communication and sensing between plants, soil, microbes, body parts, our gut, like the whole the whole bit. And to witness that it actually turns up - that science is now finding that it'll turn up - things will turn up in people, even conscious thoughts of or memories, so to speak. But memories of their ancestors, which of course to First Nations in the room, they'll just be sitting there going yes, that's of course, that's what our stories are based on. It's what our country is based on. But I guess what I'd like to hear more from you now is, you guys have been doing this for the best part of a quarter of a century and more, before the science turned this up. And before some of our recovery of relationship with First Nations peoples, but not yours. So we're going back to the roots a bit here in the Kimberley. Tell us about the connections you did make there. And how that started to change the way you think about things.
Ian 12:40
Yeah, I think that was very important AJ. It's those early years in the Kimberly, Di and I when we first got married, we we took off bush and had a three month old baby and sold everything and headed for the Kimberly. We had a Falcon station wagon and a horse float full of furniture. And that was us. In total. That was it. And we had put a deposit down on a small business, BP franchise, in Derby in West Kimberley. But what that business opened up to us as we got up there, and we soon realized that we actually knew nothing, and hadn't planned it very well, and had enough just to get into the business. And I remember we rocked up on the Sunday took possession on a Monday. And on that same day, a double road train of fuel rocked up. And you know, it was pumping fuel down the hole. And an old Aboriginal fella was a great guy. He'd be passed now - said to me, I got to take the cheque back with me for this fuel. And I all of a sudden sat back and thought shit, hadn't thought of that - for 60,000 litres of fuel. And he said no I've got to take it back with me. And I said oh gee what are we going to do? This is how unplanned this this was and how it opens up to opportunities if you just take connection with people. So we sat down and had a good talk. And this fella said, Well, what say I go walkabout for a few days and don't get the Docket back there? And it just so happens that weekend was the rodeo around weekend and he says we'll spread word amongst the community. So we did that. And by Monday morning we'd sold all the fuel and had the money and off we went - but that generosity and connection with those Aboriginal people.
Di 14:46
Anyway, it was pretty powerful times for us and Ian had a great time out there because he was the RAC road fella. But also we supplied a lot of services for the Aboriginal communities out there. At the end of the day, they were our bread and butter money. But Ian had a lot of chance to sit with guys, a lot of the old elders too, taking them back and forth into the communities. And that's where they imparted a lot of their wisdom about looking at landscape - understanding and just appreciating it. We didn't really realize at that stage we were only in our early 20s, how big an impact it had on us. And I guess, now when we look back, I think we learned at that time a little bit about taking it in here. And that is probably what's really evolved. And then working with Jane in 2001, we started to realize that so much of the stuff that we've learned was what we had to unlearn. And that's probably the hardest part sometimes is the unlearning and getting in touch with other parts and being aware of a lot of other stuff that's going on. And that's what I say with like, even with the boys, that ability to work from your heart and your intuition can be very powerful, and really quite accurate I guess.
Ian 16:11
I think the thing that just astounded us at that stage was those those people took us under their wing. So by just being open and saying to these guys like that original guy, and then we went out on to communities and said, Listen, we got this business, and we don't know what we're doing. And we actually worked together as a team. And they took us under their wing. And we worked with those people for a lot of years. So we were pretty lucky because we were in our early 20s. And those elders were in their late 80s, and as Di said I used to service all the generators and do all the RAC work and do everything in the communities - so we serviced 120 communities throughout the West Kimberley, and then right out into the desert. So I spent a lot of years out on country with those people. And what I'm really appreciative is the sharing that they gave, in that time, to me as a white fella of their in depth knowledge. And I think that's what really set us to perhaps think a change for when we came back and actually could have influence on land ourselves. So it was it was just a super important connection.
Anthony 17:20
I hear so much of our national story in that in a sense, because a lot of those elders now, books have been written about them. As we recover our relationships, they are going - will go down in this place we now call Australia, in Australian history as greats of the country, and you met them as kids, and they were like that with you. It's extraordinary to think, and a real microcosm of what we're experiencing as a country as a whole, I think. Now, Di, you mentioned an unlearning. And I'm hearing, even in your story there Ian, like a trust that you sort of had to throw to the wind a bit, but got back in spades. So there's an element of letting go. I mean, you talk about that a lot don't you, letting go of control? How do you do that? In reality. Like, what are some of the moments I guess, in your journey, where you've gone, my urge is to shut this down to move those sheep off, to growl at a kid or whatever? And you've decided not to, but then maybe even found, actually, you needed to be a bit more controlling in that moment, like, have there been moments of tussle, I suppose in that unlearning?
Di 18:34
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, in the early days, it was really difficult because of some of the stuff, you know, Jane, and I spent hours and hours on the phone, trying to work some of these things out. And a lot of it was just blind faith sometimes, because we didn't know. But some really unusual things had happened. And you'd look back in three, four or five, sometimes 10 years and said, Wow, that was what all was about. And we were actually in front of the game. And I remember speaking to Elaine Ingham in 2006. And she said, Listen, do what you do. Because the science will take 10 to 15 years to catch up. By the time I've done all the replications and get it to a stage of, you know, being able to put out in the wider community. A lot of times gone past. She said, you can't afford to wait for that you're gonna have to keep running with what you're doing - just observe and record as best you can. But she says, she says we don't know anywhere near enough. And that sort of resonates in all areas, doesn't it? We don't know as much as you know, there is to know - every time you know, we just keep going on and saying, Gosh, we know this much of that much. And we thought we probably knew knew that much of that much but no way.
Anthony 19:48
Well that's that fundamental change in story, right?
Di 19:51
Yep
Anthony 19:51
That you start with that humility, that you're part of it - and you can't know everything. And science has its limitations, it's awesome too. And the fact that it's coming in the wings with all this, is just extraordinary.
Di 20:02
Well, that's the wonderful thing, isn't it, we're having the science come up and explain what it is you're seeing or experiencing, but you can't necessarily put the words to it. But yeah, it's been a phenomenal thing. But it definitely has been a leap of faith, and we've just gone with it. And it's been very fortunate that a lot of the things have panned out as well as they had. Because I mean, there's been some pretty tough old times amongst that, too, when you're starting from such a low base. It was a lot of risk, but at the end of the day Ian and I just looked at each other and said, well we we started with nothing, if it goes pear shaped and we go back north and pour beers in a pub, or whatever we had to do, as long as our kids were happy. And, you know, as long as you're together as a family, it doesn't matter where you are. But we didn't really have a lot to lose at that stage. Because we didn't have to look after, you know, my parents or anything, they had their own operations. So we could really just do what we needed to do for ourselves and our own family,
Anthony 20:59
Yeah, it can be tougher to unlearn and let go when you've got more to let go, or feel like you've got more to let go of.
Ian 21:05
Yeah, I think the learnings that we learned up in the Kimberley with those old fellas when we were navigating through country was they always talked about to trust, trust your gut, trust your intuition. And, and that was the same when we got back down here going forward in business, just not letting things dictate us, and even though you think oh, no I should go and do that, because that's what everyone's doing. But underneath your gut feeling was, I don't know if that's quite right. And actually having the courage to, to trust, trust that, you know. And I know over the years, you know, we'd be doing things in a cropping program. And you'd relocate a whole heap of machinery down to another end of the farm, which takes a fair bit of doing with big gear, and you just start seeding, and you'd get one lap around the paddock and I'd see the ute coming across the paddock. And it was Di, and I think, oh, shit, here we go again. And and she'd come up and say I've just been on the phone to to Jane. And you know, we're getting it's not right to seed this paddock. And you know, in the early days, I used to resist a fair bit and I'd say, bloody hell, you know, we're not shifting now. And but by Jesus, I soon learned. Yeah, because it always come up and bit me on the ass. So learning to trust that, then learning how to tap into it yourselves. And if it wasn't for their persistence, you know, it's pretty easy to go back to what you thought you knew you were doing,
Anthony 22:35
Maybe particularly as a bloke?
Ian 22:37
Probably yeah.
Anthony 22:39
Hands up. There was someone else you met in the Kimberley, who was formative - want to talk about her a bit? And and I guess, we're talking around what you've come to call natural intelligence, and this day here of talking about how we tap natural intelligence. So there was this experience with Robyn, that gave you another perspective and a leg up, as I understand for when you did come back, you thought we know how we're going to start this?
Di 23:04
Yeah, I guess, Robyn Treadwell, she was running cattle on Birdwood Downs Station just out of Derby and working with a lot of the native grasses then and facilitating their growth. And that's how Ian actually got to meet her because she had an old harvester that she used to break down fairly regularly. And Ian was probably one of the only few people out there that had any experience with harvester machinery. So we'd have to go out there and fix it up for her.
Anthony 23:28
In the Kimberly, yeah, totally.
Di 23:30
And she was telling us a lot about how the cattle she used them as weeders, seeders and feeders throughout her landscape and spreading these native grasses around. But also her partner at the time, was in that biosphere project in the US. And so she would be telling us a lot about his information that they were gathering, you know, where they had that bubble thing. And they virtually had an ecosystem functioning, all the different ecosystems of the world were replicated within this biosphere to see how they, I think they went in there for about six or seven years didn't they? Isolated from their families, but just to see how this ecosystem work, which was just amazing stuff. So I think having that foundation, so then when we got in touch with Jane, and what things she was talking about, it sort of all fell into place, you know, it all made sense. And we could go on from there, because we've had a bit of a bit of an understanding, before, that these things might all work.
Anthony 24:26
What do you take out of that time Ian? What do you remember and hold on to?
Ian 24:31
Yeah it was just amazing. You know, as we start to see it all unfold and you know, and saw what, you know, you've got the influence of what Robyn was doing and the Aboriginal people so you were bringing back true, traditional culture. And then she was putting some sense into these native grasses and harvesting these and what was going along. And it wasn't only that, it was the commitment of these people like it was a whole life approach. So you know, you soon learned that you just don't don't go and do something as a project or what you do - if you're going to get success out of it, you go in 100% - 100% committed to what you do otherwise, don't do it all. Because otherwise, you're always just looking over the fence and your eyes will take you away - there's no doubt about it. So, you've just gotta - just learning to trust that intuition.
Anthony 25:25
Over the journey. I mean, even in Adelaide last week, I think someone made mention of the workshop you held with Jane. And there's a group of people in this room who were there, you went over to South Australia for it as well. And you found that - is even surprising the word? Like it was quite amazing what happened that day. But I guess what I'm seeking to hear from you now is just a sense of how it's changed over the 25 years or something that you've been back. That sense of - I don't know, is understanding the word? Or openness, the word? Like how have you found the conversation shift in that period of time, culminating perhaps in that last week?
Ian 26:04
That workshop last week or a week or so ago was was absolutely amazing. Because I'd been sitting back and Di and Jane, Jane had been working with a team of people, a team of farmers from all different backgrounds, with natural intelligence. And really, I didn't realize the depth and the commitment of what those people were actually - what actually had achieved, and to go there and sit with those people, and they were all building their systems around natural intelligence. But just the openness of the people, we're all to, we're all to thing about hiding everything or not saying what's true. But just realizing that it's this whole of life approach. And the results and the goals that they were kicking were just absolutely amazing. You know, you're seeing young guys in their late 20s running big operations, and not just coming there and talking about the farming operation, but their whole life in general. Because if you don't get that right, it's gonna suffer on the farming operation. So it's just a whole life approach. And, just the goals that they were kicking just absolutely blew me away.
Anthony 27:12
There you go. Di how have you perceived a shift since you started, with all that, in 25 years of going at it?
Di 27:19
I think that's a really key point that Ian's just raised there. And I guess we're sort of attuned normally to be sort of dealing with your own operation a bit, and community involvement and so forth. But yeah, that was something that's really coming through more now is people from all walks of life, pulling together. I mean, there's a big diversity of people in this room today. And even the people that were at the NIF thing in Adelaide, they come from different backgrounds, there was artists and different people there as well, that are feeling different stuff, and wanting to know how they can contribute. But everyone was just so open to their journey, and where they're wanting to go and putting, you know, all that effort in, because at the end of the day, like on Damon's presentation, it's going to be coming from all parts of community. There's some big changes, we're needing to take if we're wanting to really, you know, look at how this planet is going to go forward and humanity is going to go forward - we all have to make some pretty serious changes. And but it's exciting, though, because the potential is there, the desire is there, the people are there ready to run with it. And they're running with enthusiasm and energy. And it's just just so exciting to say that. And that's what I say about the young people who we're coming across now, you know, that sort of 20s, early 30s sort of age group and, and younger, I'm mean the younger ones are even more so because they haven't been as imprinted as much and they seem to be starting to come through some of the schooling systems with a bit of understanding of what's what's important, you know, to their environment, I guess, and their future. And yeah, I think it's really encouraging to see people coming together from all aspects to make these things happen.
Anthony 29:07
Yeah. And I, I feel like seeing farmers light the spark of people around the country in this way. Because yes, it's far from just you these days, is really something to behold and then see the respect and interest coming back, as it's always been deserved. But we've lived through an era where farmers have been marginalized as First Nations have been marginalized, but there's this common territory that is now lighting the spark in the rest of the country and the world for that matter. I mean, it's due but it's amazing. And if we can continue to come together on that, there does appear to be a lot of potential - not to get caught up in divisions or taking your eye away from the focus.
Di 29:53
Just on that point there. It's been really exciting and we've been very privileged to have a few opportunities of getting the produce, I guess, to the wider community. And one was, you know, the wool, as we said. But with Miller and Baker in North Perth, that opportunity, Mark approached us, if we could provide him with his grain, because he's had his own stone ground mill in Perth to be - he wanted to get that nutritious product. And he was thinking originally on a freshness perspective, you know, making sure that he could maintain the nutritional integrity of that grain into the product to the consumer as quickly as possible. But then, once he's understood this whole story, he sort of has brought another level to it. But just the response from the people that come to his store. And the feedback we get from that has been phenomenal. So the bread today has all been milled and ground off the grain that we produce off the farm and baked and thankfully Justin picked it all up fresh on Sunday, it was baked on Sunday morning for Justin to bring out. So those opportunities are just outstanding for us. But that sort of really gets a lot of feedback to us about people's responses and desire to be engaged with food when they understand what's going on at the landscape level as well. And, and a community level, you know, the people involved in doing these things. So yeah, that's been really fabulous for us to have that opportunity.
Anthony 31:25
In that context, we hear a lot of talk, less about that in the mainstream and more about carbon, for example, and even at least talking about biodiversity and other credits as well. But that's just a part of your - I mean in fact are you even involved in that yet? How are you approaching that?
Ian 31:42
Yeah, that's an interesting one, AJ, we actually haven't done a Carbon Project as of yet, you know, probably probably about to baseline looking, looking at doing something this summer. We've just been sitting back watching and assessing. And the interesting thing about it all is this whole operation's been built without that of carbon, natural capital, biodiversity, anything like that actually being valued. And that's where we're about at the moment where we're working on projects at the moment. And so the exciting stuff is really set set to come. So we're involved in a pilot at the moment. And it's 25 producers across Australia. And that's where we're valuing not just natural capital, but our stewardship of actually what we do to the environment. And we're actually putting a value to that. And that's about to all come out into fruition shortly. And we're actually converting that into a share and actually going to float it on the stock exchange. So really exciting projects been really taken up well, but on top of that again we can actually then link and do carbon projects alongside it. Now the good thing about where the exciting stuff's about to start happening is, the amount of regeneration that's needed around the world is huge. And if we're going to keep loading the price of the products we're producing, with that cost of that regeneration, that's going to price it out of significance to a lot of people around the world and make it too uncompetitive and too costly. But to be able to value these things separately, we can share both sides of it, you know, we can keep our costs down, and actually get those benefits and actually then get that money back into the farmers' hands and, and back into spent on environmental things.
Anthony 33:39
So interesting. So on the one hand, you've got these growing relationships, business relationships, where there's, I gather a premium pricing, reward - long time coming too, so that's awesome. You have carbon. But these are all now just part of what potentially is a lot bigger, and necessary thing. And I'm seeing it pop up around the world too now since I've heard you talk about it and get involved with this thing you're saying is coming down the line - the ecological and social equity, and valuing that if you like. And I spoke to a couple - Serenity Hill and Kirsten Larsen - in Victoria, this year, about how they've woven that into farm succession. And a transfer of ownership will be based on that equity too. And so their developing mechanisms to do that, that same thing, are coming down the line. And this isn't isolated now - this is happening with massive farming coops and so forth in Africa - in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, for example. There's a women led organization that's created a standard over there, where it has six key indicators across these stewardship realms. creating value out of what is of most value to us.
Ian 33:39
Oh, it's really rewarding and what we what we've realized throughout the whole process and we look around the world and we've been lucky enough to travel a fair bit around the world and we soon realized, you can get caught up in your own day to day farm productivity, what you're doing. But then when you look at the rest of the world and you speak to people of the world where we can you soon realize that we haven't got a customer problem, we haven't got a person problem, a lack of people not wanting what you're doing. You know, we've been in situations and it can be in Seoul in South Korea or wherever, and you're there at a do, and you're fronting up against the big multinationals - your Glencore's or whatever it might be, and we're there just as little farmers, and you think, Well, these guys are gonna blow us out of the water, in actually looking at product. And we sit back and think we've got nothing to lose. So we actually talk about these things - social consequence, soil biology, the whole things, and we've come out on top every time. So you soon realize. And then you put together and against the trillions of dollars that are backing up in bank accounts around the world, to be looking into investing into sustainability goals, and all these things. And there's been no vehicle to do that. And I think a lot of these things are starting to unfold now. And so we're getting into a really good space now - a lot will change.
Anthony 36:18
I wonder if any of you might like to ask a question at this juncture? Bang, there's a hand.
Audience question 1 36:24
My question for Ian and Di was, do you separate your business? So do you find that one of you is better at running a different part of the business to the other? Or do you just do everything together?
Di 36:35
Ian does take most of the responsibility for the cropping. And I do most of the responsibility along with Bec and Rach for the sheep. But yeah, we've worked as a team completely. And as Ian says, at seeding time, that can drive him nuts when we go around together. Yeah, we're just sensing all the time and asking the questions all the time. Is it appropriate for these paddocks to be going in and what to and blah, blah, blah. And, you know, sometimes it might not make sense to you what you think but then sure enough, you know, there'll end up being frost at the end of the season - whatever else that might be - that's changed what you've done, and for whatever reason. So yeah, Ian and I do spend a lot of time and the more time we actually can spend together, driving around together and making those decisions, the better it works. As we've got bigger, it has got harder to manage that. But that's why we're needing more people on the country to help us with some of the other tasks so that we can spend more time - and also the capacity then to train other people alongside us to make those decisions as well, because it's no good us old farts just doing that and not having the next generation coming through with those abilities, and understanding of working together as a team. And we've been very fortunate, I guess, being husband and wife having a balance of male and female energy there, too. So I think that's been really critical that we have a balance in what we do in that decision making process.
Anthony 38:00
Thank you,
Ian 38:01
You've got to gotta be really careful when you get machinery involved. You get these big rigs floating around, you can lose a lot of sense of what's actually happening. And, you know, so our whole crew, you know, one sheep can stop a bloomin' $2 million seeding rig. And have it all sitting still - where most people would just go mental and say we've just got to keep that machine rolling. Well no, you know, it's got to be respected. So it's all gonna be working in harmony.
Audience question 2 38:28
Ian and Di, have you ever considered looking back whether you might have preferred to stop at 2000 hectares? How does it work for you - looking back, would you change your thinking?
Ian 38:42
No. We've got a problem with saying no. That's why I'm sitting up here out of my comfort zone, and there's 170 people out there - got a bit of a problem with saying no. So no, we've always just let things unfold. We're very careful not to set a goal of this is where I want to be in this time, because or this is what I'm going to yield, you know - we all know roughly what's going on - because you're actually setting - you tend to setting a cap on what you're doing. So we just leave things open, and 10 out of 10 times that actually far exceeds what you probably would have ever thought of. And I think the other thing is too, we've had that question asked to us before, you know, why don't you sell up and just go and buy something down in the blue chip area and make it all easy and, and realistically, you know, what's the point of that? You know, like we were very lucky in our early days, we had a very good mentor. And that was our ex Governor General - late Michael Jefferies, Major General Michael Jefferies. And he was a great mentor for us for many years. And he taught us a lot about life on that side of the spectrum, from what we'd learned up in the Kimberley. And we were sitting around one day in the lounge and having a rum. And Mike just said to me, he said, the definition of the weakest man I've ever met is a man that has got some knowledge, and could make a difference and doesn't do anything about it. And he just left it at that. And I thought, afterwards, yeah, that was a true kick up the ass. And so that's probably what's let us go, you know, we've often thought, well, we've heard so many times in this kind of agriculture, you know, we've got compost going, we're using worm juice, we're doing all these things. But oh if you've got a little operation you can do that, you know, you can't do it at scale. So all these big multinationals and that'll go around that's putting in 10s of 1000s of hectares saying we can't do it. So what we're looking at doing is saying, well, you can - if we can do it, why can't you do it?
Anthony 40:55
And so much of the territory around the world that is in trouble is semi arid, or at least what can be done in semi arid places means it can be done there. So you're setting up a world model, in that sense, the relevance extends far beyond Australia.
Di 41:11
I'd just like to expand on that too. It seems to be just part of that whole natural intelligence thing, when you stop thinking about it all the time and start working from here, the opportunities have just come to us and like we've had people approach us to say look, you know, could you lease our farm or share farm with us or whatever? And as Ian says, We're not very good at saying no. And we've just said, Yes. And it's, it's worked out. You know, we've been very fortunate in that regard. But, you know, we've had a hell of a lot of learning opportunities along the way to.
Anthony 41:44
Well that's a nice way to put it.
Di 41:45
It hasn't all been a bed of roses.
Anthony 41:47
Yeah, it's important to say, isn't it? Not everything works out. But on the whole ...
Di 41:52
Yeah. Oh, there's been some long, hard hours. I mean, our kids will tell you, anytime. I mean they all got to play all their sport and everything else. We always made sure that they could do that. But there was lots of times and you know, Mom and Dad were off and they were cooking tea. So they've, they've learned a lot and had to deal with all that kind of thing. But at the end of the day, I wouldn't change anything. Because for what we've been privileged enough to learn on that journey. And what it's opened us up to more opportunity and potentials and, and just seeing community coming together, people coming together the way we've changed the way we think about things. Because we don't think much at all anymore. It's good to have a bit of vacant brian space, you don't have to worry about it. But um, yeah, it's been an amazing thing. And I certainly wouldn't not have done it. And when it comes to from a landscape perspective, what we're learning now about landscape interaction, at that sort of almost like a catchment level now, is phenomenal. And you talk about that freshwater lens, and we will be going through one of the paddocks that is a big recharge area to that, and we've had it covered - we cropped it, took it on in 2016, cropped it for two years. So we've got that biological functioning starting. And now we've just seen plant succession and change significantly such that those three grasses we got from there, they're only just a few other grasses we managed to grab this morning, but there's a lot more there. It is a significant recharge zone for that water to be filtered and altered so that a freshwater lens can form lower in the landscape. I mean, if we didn't have access to all that adjoining land, we wouldn't see that. So there's a lot a lot there.
Anthony 43:31
Alright, we're coming to time. To close this one out I sort of want to round the circle in a way with you guys, to get a sense of your sense of how your reconnection with First Nations people here feels and how the relationships are coming along? And I guess I say that as much, you know, not just with reference to your beginnings, but knowing that you have, I guess such a deep respect for the people that you are meeting here. Do you want to talk to that? Actually, I'll give it another bit of a primer. So at the RCS conference, the big RCS Convergence conference in Brisbane, one of the things that came up was that as farmers and land managers, we have the opportunity to invite First Nations people in. We were hearing stories from First Nations people where they would go back onto country, and they would even try and knock on the door of landowners, and at times have literally guns pulled on them still. So in that context, where we've got this opportunity though, as land managers, how are you working with that?
Di 44:38
Yeah we've been trying to reach out for a period of time pre COVID. And that sort of slowed things up a little bit. We've had an opportunity and we're very blessed to have been invited on country to a very special man's farm down in the Beverly area, and he's been showing us a lot of the way. We're very grateful that Heidi was able to attend today and this evening, and she's already shed some amazing insight for us. And I think that's it. There's just such wonderful richness ahead, we've got a lot of learning to do. And we're really excited about that. Because there's, it is an amazing landscape out there with so much opportunity, and particularly, you know, from food productions perspective, but also health and community. And that's what we're wanting to develop further. And that is the next next phase for us. But we're very early days. But really looking forward to that.
Ian 45:31
I think we have to work on these things. Because I look back as we said earlier on, if it wasn't for the Aboriginal people, those First Nations people that actually took us on board when we first went to the Kimberley, you know, a bit of an ignorant white fella, and they had no reason to give you any consideration at all. It was that olive branch, and then taking you on board that's actually got us to where we are today. So that's why we've got such a respect for that side of it.
Anthony 45:57
Terrific. Please give a massive hand to Di and Ian.
Anthony 46:07
That was Di and Ian Haggerty, pioneering regenerative farmers and co-founders of natural intelligence farming. For more on Di and Ian, natural intelligence farming, and Nakala and the team at Nutrisoil who brought it all together, see the links in our program details. You’ll find a bunch of photos on the episode web page too. And stay tuned next week, for the truly extraordinary story of what was unfolding on Country while this event was taking place.And that’s with thanks as always to the generous supporters who’ve helped make this episode possible. If you’re enjoying what you hear, please consider joining this community of supporting listeners so I can keep the podcast going. Just head to the website via the show notes, RegenNarration.com/support. Thanks again! And if you can, share this episode with someone you know who you think might like it. The music you’re hearing is Regeneration, by Amelia Barden, off the Regenerating Australia soundtrack. My name’s Anthony James, thanks for listening.
Find more:
Di Haggerty on LinkedIn.
Tune in to episode 68 for a tour around the farm with Di and Ian, produced over the first weekend I spent there in 2020.
And to episode 124 with co-founder of Natural Intelligence farming, Jane Slattery.
Nutrisoil, the organisers of this event, and long-term collaborators with the Haggerty’s.
Music:
Regeneration, composed by Amelia Barden, from the soundtrack of the new film Regenerating Australia, available for community screenings now.